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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#281

Post by magicalist »

jazzypants wrote: post #256
magicalist wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they've boasted[1] about their generated code being so good that they add basically zero value and that they're riding out the rentseeking for as long as possible. Meanwhile they've apparently played with LLM porting of Postgres (or Postgres features?) and "would not put it in production"[2], so we can also guess the kind and scope of features being discussed here. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4959…

It's a pretty bad sign when you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument. This user could be a complete con man, and it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value.

> you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument

It's not a general argument, they made specific claims, but vague posted (and implying everyone else must be crazy) to the point that the conversation is derailed by a bunch of people trying to figure out what they meant.

> it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value.

lol, no, "providing business value" is not what was claimed:

>> What are people here doing exactly that they are not riding the gravy train and even reporting all these negative AI experiences?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#282

Post by napo »

pibaker wrote: post #262
PostOnce wrote: post #88

John Carmack is a personal hero of mine, so it pains me to say this: Carmack hasn't produced anything noteworthy since AI was invented, therefore, how productive can it really be? It could be he is doing incredible work in private... but it could also be that he's lost in the weeds, because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite? I remain a skeptic.

What had he produced in the years prior to AI getting good enough for coding? All I know is he was on Zuckerberg's sinking metaverse boat for years, and then nothing else. Maybe it's him, maybe it's his employer. I don't know. I am skeptical of AI's impact on work myself but I just don't think AI is the only thing to blame here.

Oculus was pretty fun and a really nice piece of hardware. What was painful was all the meta things on top of it, which I doubt was something he personally added.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#283

Post by magicalist »

anonzzzies wrote: post #233
magicalist wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they've boasted[1] about their generated code being so good that they add basically zero value and that they're riding out the rentseeking for as long as possible. Meanwhile they've apparently played with LLM porting of Postgres (or Postgres features?) and "would not put it in production"[2], so we can also guess the kind and scope of features being discussed here. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4959…

The second was just for fun; it is fun. This is very far from the code we roll out at customers though. We build LoB apps which are basically crud apps (they are not but most here would call it that). We can have fun and make money right? Possibly at the same time but not in that case.

> The second was just for fun; it is fun. This is very far from the code we roll out at customers though.

Which is fine, great even (I do the same thing!), but in trying different things outside your day job, it seems like you do understand why people working on different things than you might be "reporting all these negative AI experiences"?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#284

Post by dofm »

entrope wrote: post #277
dofm wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app So we are switching to LLMs to be fucking miserable in our jobs?

The whole point of the MS Access reference is that similar situations have been tropes since at least the 1990s. Bad code generated by someone who doesn't know how to program well -- whether that person is supposed to be a professional programmer but is incompetent, or has a different job -- is nothing new, and neither is having competent programmers clean it up. LLMs probably generate more of it, but can also fix a…

> The whole point of the MS Access reference is that similar situations have been tropes since at least the 1990s.

I do actually understand that.

I have done this very put the Access database on the web job myself. (FWIW I was well-paid for it and the firm I worked for earned a fortune, but this was in 1997)

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#285

Post by jeltz »

pibaker wrote: post #262
PostOnce wrote: post #88

John Carmack is a personal hero of mine, so it pains me to say this: Carmack hasn't produced anything noteworthy since AI was invented, therefore, how productive can it really be? It could be he is doing incredible work in private... but it could also be that he's lost in the weeds, because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite? I remain a skeptic.

What had he produced in the years prior to AI getting good enough for coding? All I know is he was on Zuckerberg's sinking metaverse boat for years, and then nothing else. Maybe it's him, maybe it's his employer. I don't know. I am skeptical of AI's impact on work myself but I just don't think AI is the only thing to blame here.

But as he has little to show the last decades we have very little reason to listen to him over some random blogger.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#286

Post by throwaway63467 »

napo wrote: post #282
pibaker wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What had he produced in the years prior to AI getting good enough for coding? All I know is he was on Zuckerberg's sinking metaverse boat for years, and then nothing else. Maybe it's him, maybe it's his employer. I don't know. I am skeptical of AI's impact on work myself but I just don't think AI is the only thing to blame here.

Oculus was pretty fun and a really nice piece of hardware. What was painful was all the meta things on top of it, which I doubt was something he personally added.

But he didn’t build the Oculus did he? Not sure what he worked on, software?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#287

Post by becquerel »

tkel wrote: post #63
boshalfoshal wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Code in most organizations is a means to an end to produce an actual product. The job of a SWE is to not produce the most sublime readable code with cute language bells and whistles that you can show off to your other programmer friends. Yes its fun to do and interesting, but the main value in writing code is to express your intent so you and other people that are working with you can actually build something of valu…

You're reducing programming to its utility in producing exchange value in the captitalist political economy. That's what "value" means in this context. That's exactly what I'm pointing out. Programming is more than that, if you can think beyond your current economic constraints. Your life's activity ought to be more than just a tool for producing capitalist exchange value. Does cooking food serve any purpose beyond m…

It would be nice if I could live my life without concern for producing capitalist exchange value. However, I live under the regime of capital and need to pay rent. So my goal is to pay rent with the least amount of suffering on my part.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#288

Post by Razengan »

sriram_malhar wrote: post #267
Razengan wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless there is a French Revolution style uprising Yeah civilians are not going to win with weapons anymore. The imbalance there has been ridiculously disproportionate for decades. But the common peon can use AI to look up laws and rights and other information and shit to see what we CAN still do. USE it before they take that away too.

You can look up laws all night long. Check out all the laws broken by Potus, ICE (just to name a few) on a daily basis. The peasantry is not on the side that enforces the law. AI is. AI is a force multiplier. The more force you have, the more multiples of it you en up with. Flock uses AI to do surveillance at scale. Every cloud service has NSA backdoors.

So we stop AI, uninvent it,

what then?

We go back to how it was before AI

And everyone will have a better life?

Let's hear your plan

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#289

Post by jeltz »

alexashka wrote: post #118
PostOnce wrote: post #88

John Carmack is a personal hero of mine, so it pains me to say this: Carmack hasn't produced anything noteworthy since AI was invented, therefore, how productive can it really be? It could be he is doing incredible work in private... but it could also be that he's lost in the weeds, because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite? I remain a skeptic.

Sure, among all these other people doing 'incredible work' for 30+ years publicly, well into their 50s, John Carmack sure is a disappointment by comparison.

I would rather listen to someone with current merits than someone who has not produced anything notable in years. Especially if the topic is current trends in software development.
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