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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#251

Post by dofm »

brandonmenc wrote: post #242
ElProlactin wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Plenty of reasons, including: 1. They don't (yet) know how to use AI to accomplish what they need. 2. The ROI is still meaningfully positive and they don't want to have to do it themselves. 3. Having a third-party do the work provides protection for decision-makers. If the project fails, the third-party takes the b…

I recently tried to encourage my smart, technical, but not-programmer friend to build an app using LLMs and he was just like, "I still have no idea where to even start." People talk a lot about how "real programmers" used to have to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app, and that sort of thing will probably still be the case for a while.

> to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app

So we are switching to LLMs to be fucking miserable in our jobs?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#252

Post by dingaling »

alexpotato wrote: post #122

This post reminded me of the story about Jeet Kun Do [0] after Bruce Lee [1] died. JKD was supposed to be a martial art that adapted the best techniques from other martial arts. e.g. "have no style" because your style is constantly adapting. After Lee died, JKD broke into two camps: 1. "We should only teach what Lee taught us and no more. e.g. the techniques he taught us are the core techniques." 2. "Lee taught us to…

"as it highlights how humans have essentially two reactions to change"

I'd wager that the most common reaction to change is actually "wearily accept it as there is no realistic option".

Most change is deleterious to those affected; it requires them to change how they live or work, or pay more, just to maintain the status quo. This sort of change is usually imposed by large organisations against which the individual is helpless.

When people are faced with that sort of change it's little wonder they complain about it, but eventually they have to submit to it or face a degredation in their life or work.

Then those who imposed the change roll their eyes and say "ugh, people are so afraid of change," being insulated from and benefitting from it.

The next time you receive a ToS update from your $FAVORITEVENDOR that negatively affects how you do something, or a new tax filing requirement from $GOV that takes up more of your personal time, do come on here and post about how you embraced the change.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#253

Post by jbellis »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #205
Yoric wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not GP, but I can. I'm currently working on porting a mid-sized project to a new architecture, new programming language and of course adding new features. Getting a new feature implemented is quite easy. You spend a few hours brainstorming specs with the agent, then ask it to implement it. This gives you extremely frequent code drops that add a new brick, add a new feature, etc. All of this with 100% code coverage (w…

But why did it pass the reviews of the independent subagents whose sole job it is to check all those things? They are very good at that.

One thing we've noticed is that if you have model X implement AND review the same change, the reviewer often shares the same blind spots as the implementer. https://blog.brokk.ai/mjolnir-automated-cross-vendor-adversa...

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#254

Post by ramesh31 »

magicalist wrote: post #245
ramesh31 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not "adding no value", the SLA is the value. I have a business problem, and I pay you to solve it and support your solution for me, is a completely different proposition than standing up your own solution as a non-technical org and maintaining it.

> They're not "adding no value", the SLA is the value The code their Astra+Fable setup, automatically generated from requests customers leave in voicemails, is apparently so good they never correct it. If the stories being woven are true, the SLA is literally just a middleman's 100k cut. At the very least there might be some particulars here that aren't universally applicable.

>"the SLA is literally just a middleman's 100k cut"

Indeed, welcome to enterprise software.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#255

Post by thinkingtoilet »

Razengan wrote: post #81
sriram_malhar wrote: post #31

Everyone who writes enthusiastically about AI already has the benefit of having worked without AI. They have been schooled in the basics. Enough of us know about data structures, concurrency, networks, language design etc. from the ground up that the knowledge is passed on. I worry about the world that we will be living in when a whole generation has skipped learning the basics the hard way. Given the attendance rate…

> I worry about the world that we will be living in when a whole generation has skipped learning the basics the hard way. Have you been schooled in farming? Raising livestock? Milking cattle? Does your ability to cook good food depend upon your ability to till soil and sow seeds? I don't mean that in ass way but re: what other comments said: > it feels like a rich getting richer scenario in all aspects of society Tha…

>Have you been schooled in farming? Raising livestock? Milking cattle?

No! And good thing I'm not a farmer!

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#256

Post by jazzypants »

magicalist wrote: post #226
ElProlactin wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Plenty of reasons, including: 1. They don't (yet) know how to use AI to accomplish what they need. 2. The ROI is still meaningfully positive and they don't want to have to do it themselves. 3. Having a third-party do the work provides protection for decision-makers. If the project fails, the third-party takes the b…

I mean they've boasted[1] about their generated code being so good that they add basically zero value and that they're riding out the rentseeking for as long as possible. Meanwhile they've apparently played with LLM porting of Postgres (or Postgres features?) and "would not put it in production"[2], so we can also guess the kind and scope of features being discussed here. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4959…

It's a pretty bad sign when you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument. This user could be a complete con man, and it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#257

Post by anonzzzies »

dofm wrote: post #213
anonzzzies wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I don't get what people on HN are doing? Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. I mean, we should not measure everything in money, but for lack of a better measure for productivity, I cannot see how anyone fi…

> Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. OK so, it sounds empty and miserable to me, but we can stipulate that this is how it is working out for you. Given that stipulation: how long do you think this can possibly…

The point is that button pushers currently simply don’t seem to be able to do this work, so it’s a little more than pushing some buttons. But no, I don’t think it will last very long, but few years more I guess looking at the competition and lack thereof.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#258

Post by somenameforme »

dofm wrote: post #231
somenameforme wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not just in a race to the bottom with everybody else who is doing this. I don't think his anecdote is particularly surprising at all. You can do the same with basically any typical CRUD app, which is already going to be some very large percentage of all business software. But this kind of also leads to the conclusion that so can the people paying you. I think the years of software development/employment for pr…

I think it's a mistake to assume that quality doesn't plummet when cost does, even if the AI is capable of quality work. The quality issue will always resurface. But yeah — I mean, I am a freelancer who burned out for reasons that are rather more influenced by the SaaS wave. That was hard to compete with. People choose between the solution that meets their needs and changing their processes to meet the ten-times-chea…

A bit of a tangent here, but I'd look into lower cost of living areas if you have the ability to move/remote, even moreso if you'll be drawing social security or have a pension. Money just goes so much further, and with an overall much better quality of life. And there's always stuff like teaching, moreso because it's enjoyable than for the paycheck.

But in these parts of the world, making a few bucks doing whatever in the software world goes so much further. Because of that I think LLMs are bringing in something like a temporary golden age. And these parts of the world will be the last to have the lights go out on software simply because the low cost of living means there's a whole lot more slack to give before things get bad.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#259

Post by rpdillon »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #196
anonzzzies wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I don't get what people on HN are doing? Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. I mean, we should not measure everything in money, but for lack of a better measure for productivity, I cannot see how anyone fi…

If it works for you, great! Just keep going. I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Certainly they understand their problems better than you and they can adapt to rising issues faster if their in-house team does it themselves. And certainly what kind of AI you can access, they can too and perhaps even more. So what will remain your value propositions? I’m…

> nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves?

It's easy if you're already an expert at software engineering and know how to leverage AI. For people like that, it's a phenomenal upgrade (this is true for me and several co-workers I chat with, all of whom are chasing cool ideas on side projects). But if you're non-technical, or not use to thinking about requirements, or think that using AI is "give me the prompt", it's a pretty big moat to cross.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#260

Post by skydhash »

mohamedkoubaa wrote: post #229
N_Lens wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

I get flamed here whenever I say it's a skill issue, but it absolutely is. Not everyone has what it takes to be a successful CTO but that's the role you play if have 20 agents working on something you designed. I see you got downvoted too.

It would be a skill issue if someone would show they’re able to use it to produce good software while showcasing that it’s due to their mastery. Till this day, I don’t think there’s any such demonstration. Any defects of the technology is always blamed on skill issue.
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