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A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

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Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#11

Post by dotancohen »

ilt wrote: post #8
himata4113 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is even more crazy is that we can actually look as far as the beginning of the universe just because of how long it takes for particles from the other side of the universe to reach us.

I’m not a science person but I think I understand the crux of what you’re saying here - have a question though: are those particles finite? And those are light particles, right? Is the number of those particles increasing the longer they travel? Sorry if questions don’t make sense…

Light is not a particle, nor is it a wave. However, under some circumstances it does behave like a particle - we even have a name for that (photon). However for purposes of this type of discussion - how it travels long distances - we need to look at the wave properties of light. The particle properties are more interaction-based.

Light moves at the speed of causality - C - so it does not experience time. Therefore light never changes. However, for distant extra-galactic objects, the space that the light is traveling through is expanding! Thus the wave property of light is stretched out as well. So what was once visible light is now so stretched out (in our reference frame) that our eyes can't detect it (that's why the night sky is black).

So yes, the light is finite. It itself experiences no change. The number of particles heading in our direction only changes when they encounter some types of mass, such as interstellar or intergalactic gad clouds.

If you want to know why light is not a particle (and also not a wave) check out the dual-slit experiments. Fascinating stuff.

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#12

Post by ButlerianJihad »

dotancohen wrote: post #11
ilt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a science person but I think I understand the crux of what you’re saying here - have a question though: are those particles finite? And those are light particles, right? Is the number of those particles increasing the longer they travel? Sorry if questions don’t make sense…

Light is not a particle, nor is it a wave. However, under some circumstances it does behave like a particle - we even have a name for that (photon). However for purposes of this type of discussion - how it travels long distances - we need to look at the wave properties of light. The particle properties are more interaction-based. Light moves at the speed of causality - C - so it does not experience time. Therefore li…

> Light moves at the speed of casualty - C

C is coulombs

And casualty is a dead person

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#13

Post by dotancohen »

ButlerianJihad wrote: post #12
dotancohen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Light is not a particle, nor is it a wave. However, under some circumstances it does behave like a particle - we even have a name for that (photon). However for purposes of this type of discussion - how it travels long distances - we need to look at the wave properties of light. The particle properties are more interaction-based. Light moves at the speed of causality - C - so it does not experience time. Therefore li…

> Light moves at the speed of casualty - C C is coulombs And casualty is a dead person

Typo corrected, thank you!

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#14

Post by anonzzzies »

dotancohen wrote: post #10
Towaway69 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What blows my mind is that 20 million light years also means that what we're observing something that happened 20 million years ago . We're looking into the very distant past, at something that might well no longer exist. Turn that around and there well could be other lifeforms observing the Earth with dinosaurs roaming around on it. Perhaps observing the impact of a giant meteor onto the earth. The light of that met…

> What blows my mind is that 20 million light years also means that what we're observing something that happened 20 million years ago. Well... Not really. It took the entirety of the book A Brief History Of Time to even grasp a cusp of this, so I know I won't convince you in a short HN comment, but "now" is the collection of events that currently affect us. Due to causality, events outside our light cone have not occ…

But that 20m year old light is in our past light cone; we can say it is in our past. If it is not in our light cone, we cannot communicate any temporal info so we cannot say if it’s now, past or future in reference to us as observer.

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#15

Post by ShinyLeftPad »

Towaway69 wrote: post #6
dotancohen wrote: post #4

While the conclusions of the observation are interesting, what really stood out to me was the observations themselves. That black hole is 20 million light years away, in another galaxy! And we have multiple high enough resolution observations to conclude how the gas orbits the black hole and gets dragged along behind it. That's nuts.

What blows my mind is that 20 million light years also means that what we're observing something that happened 20 million years ago . We're looking into the very distant past, at something that might well no longer exist. Turn that around and there well could be other lifeforms observing the Earth with dinosaurs roaming around on it. Perhaps observing the impact of a giant meteor onto the earth. The light of that met…

It's crazy only if you use a specific geocentric version of "now".

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#16

Post by ShinyLeftPad »

tappaseater wrote: post #9
ilt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a science person but I think I understand the crux of what you’re saying here - have a question though: are those particles finite? And those are light particles, right? Is the number of those particles increasing the longer they travel? Sorry if questions don’t make sense…

The commenter is referring to the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB). Whilst most of the universe is a dark void, if you tune a radio to a certain frequency, there's a faint, static buzz in the microwave part of the spectrum. It is heard no matter which direction you point the dish. This is a left-over from the Big Bang and started out as light but due to the expansion of space, the wavelength has increased, and that'…

You don't get microwave radio frequency by increasing wavelength of light, it's the other way around.

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#17

Post by grumpopotamus »

anonzzzies wrote: post #14
dotancohen wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What blows my mind is that 20 million light years also means that what we're observing something that happened 20 million years ago. Well... Not really. It took the entirety of the book A Brief History Of Time to even grasp a cusp of this, so I know I won't convince you in a short HN comment, but "now" is the collection of events that currently affect us. Due to causality, events outside our light cone have not occ…

But that 20m year old light is in our past light cone; we can say it is in our past. If it is not in our light cone, we cannot communicate any temporal info so we cannot say if it’s now, past or future in reference to us as observer.

I think "something that happened 20M years ago" is still wrong. One of the consequences of special relativity is there is no such thing as "simultaneous" events very far apart. In other words, if we went back 20M years on Earth we could not meaningfully say the black hole event is happening "right now".

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#18

Post by anonzzzies »

grumpopotamus wrote: post #17
anonzzzies wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that 20m year old light is in our past light cone; we can say it is in our past. If it is not in our light cone, we cannot communicate any temporal info so we cannot say if it’s now, past or future in reference to us as observer.

I think "something that happened 20M years ago" is still wrong. One of the consequences of special relativity is there is no such thing as "simultaneous" events very far apart. In other words, if we went back 20M years on Earth we could not meaningfully say the black hole event is happening "right now".

Yes, but we can say it happened in our past. But agreed, we cannot go back 20m years and say it’s simultaneous with the events here. If GP meant that, then agreed.

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#19

Post by Towaway69 »

dotancohen wrote: post #11
ilt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a science person but I think I understand the crux of what you’re saying here - have a question though: are those particles finite? And those are light particles, right? Is the number of those particles increasing the longer they travel? Sorry if questions don’t make sense…

Light is not a particle, nor is it a wave. However, under some circumstances it does behave like a particle - we even have a name for that (photon). However for purposes of this type of discussion - how it travels long distances - we need to look at the wave properties of light. The particle properties are more interaction-based. Light moves at the speed of causality - C - so it does not experience time. Therefore li…

Philosophical speaking, I wonder what the folks will think of our theories of light, time and space in the not too distant future.

Much as the flat earth theories or the universe rotates around the earth, I suspect we don’t really get it yet and we’ll have other ideas in 300 years from now.

Just reading here about the theories of light, fundamentally we don’t understand what light truly is. Sure we have this theory and that idea, but these seem too complex and fragile to be really it - imho.

I mean no disrespect, and everyone can have their theories and opinions. But we shouldn’t forget the arrow of time continues and it’s still a long way to go.

Re: A wandering black hole caught feeding on the run

#20

Post by ViktorRay »

grumpopotamus wrote: post #17
anonzzzies wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that 20m year old light is in our past light cone; we can say it is in our past. If it is not in our light cone, we cannot communicate any temporal info so we cannot say if it’s now, past or future in reference to us as observer.

I think "something that happened 20M years ago" is still wrong. One of the consequences of special relativity is there is no such thing as "simultaneous" events very far apart. In other words, if we went back 20M years on Earth we could not meaningfully say the black hole event is happening "right now".

Wait then what about events that happen on Pluto?

Pluto is around five light hours away from us.

If an astronaut goes to Pluto and films herself doing activity A and then broadcasts that back to Earth, it would take around five hours for the broadcast to reach us.

So you’re saying that it is not correct to say her recorded activity happened five hours ago?

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