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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I don't get what people on HN are doing? Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. I mean, we should not measure everything in money, but for lack of a better measure for productivity, I cannot see how anyone fi…

Ya, AI is very good at generating number, be that code for software, images for ads, or banal prose for company blogs. AI not so good at growing corn, cooking eggs, biulding houses, running fiber, treating disease, changing brake pads, loading a truck... or any of the other millions of physical-world jobs on which the economy is biult. If you company is all about creating things that go on the internet, sure, AI is y…

They sure are though; they have many processes to automate as well: big corn farmers/factories also have admin, erp, crm, departments with processes etc. There are companies doing billions in revenue with departments of people just copy/pasting PDFs who do real life things like you state who have immediate gains. But they won't do it alone yet and luckily need us. They still benefit though vs the large consultant businesses or even their own IT deps though.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#182
post #175
post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

How can you have proper real understanding of data structures and algorithms without at same time having line-by-line mental model? Or do you blindly trust what machine tells you at whatever time you are communicating with it? Architecture I might give not needing line-by-line model. But I really doubt the same with data structures and algorithms. Those are in the end build from lines.

Djikstra seemed to manage?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra#Use_of_tech...

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine a football fan going up to Ronaldo and saying hey, I saw an interview you did last week - I think you may be lost in the weeds there with your training regimen and outlook. I want to let you know - I remain a skeptic. I mean, when you start scoring goals like you did 5 years ago Ronaldo, but until then, I remain a skeptic about that training regimen. As for misinterpreting - maybe you're misinterpreti…

Do you believe a 50 year old software engineer is mentally no longer able to work? Should they be forced to sit back and tell stories of the good old days because their knees are blown out? Do you believe that one of the greatest living programmers is so washed up at 50 that _even with the greatest LLM tools_ cannot ship something publicly in four years to back up his claims?

[deleted]

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#184
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been schooled in farming, but my understanding of food has greatly increased since we started growing our own vegetables.

Yes, but that still has little bearing on actual cooking skills, no?

Knowing how to go from whatever is fresh today in the garden to a meal is a cooking skill, yes. And how to preserve gluts of fruit, also a skill.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#185
post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

> We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. That exact sentence could have been said 20 years as well as 40 years ago. I don't know how you programmed pre-LLM, but line-by-line has long been a thing of the past, if it ever existed. I'm sure the folks creating the Apollo software were…

They weren't. A lot of abstraction concepts like ADT, modularization, structured programming had to be developed over the following decades.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I don't get what people on HN are doing? Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. I mean, we should not measure everything in money, but for lack of a better measure for productivity, I cannot see how anyone fi…

Don't underestimate the power of motivated reasoning. Certain people don't like AI coding for various ideological reasons, and so they will, not coincidentally, consistently fail to find it productive or helpful.

As long as we don't underestimate the power of motivated reasoning for other certain people as well, who like AI coding for various ideological or financial reasons.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#187
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you have proper real understanding of data structures and algorithms without at same time having line-by-line mental model? Or do you blindly trust what machine tells you at whatever time you are communicating with it? Architecture I might give not needing line-by-line model. But I really doubt the same with data structures and algorithms. Those are in the end build from lines.

Djikstra seemed to manage? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra#Use_of_tech...

Seems to indicate to me that he had full mental model of everything. Whole thing in his head at once. Clearly having it in mental model sentence by sentence.

AI would here be the word processor.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, AI is very good at generating number, be that code for software, images for ads, or banal prose for company blogs. AI not so good at growing corn, cooking eggs, biulding houses, running fiber, treating disease, changing brake pads, loading a truck... or any of the other millions of physical-world jobs on which the economy is biult. If you company is all about creating things that go on the internet, sure, AI is y…

They sure are though; they have many processes to automate as well: big corn farmers/factories also have admin, erp, crm, departments with processes etc. There are companies doing billions in revenue with departments of people just copy/pasting PDFs who do real life things like you state who have immediate gains. But they won't do it alone yet and luckily need us. They still benefit though vs the large consultant bus…

They do and there are certainly some mid-level management jobs at risk, but ask any farmer/electrician/millright about the claimed impact of AI and they will laugh. They have yet to see an AI capable of reliably replacing a fuse let alone doing a solid day's work.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#189
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on this with real-world examples you've experienced?

Not GP, but I can. I'm currently working on porting a mid-sized project to a new architecture, new programming language and of course adding new features. Getting a new feature implemented is quite easy. You spend a few hours brainstorming specs with the agent, then ask it to implement it. This gives you extremely frequent code drops that add a new brick, add a new feature, etc. All of this with 100% code coverage (w…

This is the interesting bit

> "Why did it pass reviews? Well, because of deadlines. And because there is simply so much code (and so much unparsable/misleading documentation) that it's simply impossible to review all of this. And because things move so fast that nobody understands the CI pipeline anymore, and the explanations of the agent are convincing enough that surely, it knows better than you?"

I have come to realize that AI is so "successful" because the system in which it is being deployed was designed to push product as fast and cheaply as possible from the start.

Humans are usually overworked and stretched to their breaking point, which I originally saw as the source of our broken software woes, which, like our streets in the US, just get a new layer of asphalt to cover up the crumbling bits each year instead of rebuilding the infrastructure with reliability and longevity in mind.

My former employer was using both Claude and Codex for firmware that was driving an over-burdened power circuit that itself was partially designed with ChatGPT. All of the individuals involved approach LLMs with god-fearing reverance because they do not understand _how_ the LLM works, just that it _does_ in a "good enough" way and they can offload their thinking, which is something we all wish we could do because thinking is hard, time-consuming and costly. I get it.

But like you mentioned, tests were being passed, not because the code was sound, but because the tests were altered to match the results. This is not necessarily the fault of the agent, either; it's just interpretting the prompt(s) - written by a flawed human, btw - with stochastic mechinations that seem to make a great deal of sense on the surface, but remain unable to be followed or repeated by the brains of (most of) its users.

As a rresult, I had to deal with product that work great in the field...at least at first, before it start literally catching fire, ruining its own powertrain because everything the agents touched became too complex with too many subtle cracks in the veneer to review properly. The system (read; capitalism) demanded viable product quickly to please investors, and the burnt-out humans who decided to try this AI thing ended up trusting it nearly completely, so any ideas of repeatable and complete testing, diagnostics and root cause failure analysis morphed into a sloppy "it works on the bench" checklist before being sold to a customer who had come to trust that their deceptively simple product would just work as advertised.

I'm going to die on the hill that AI as a replacement for our brains is precisely how we will make ourselves go extict, but I am old enough to already be regarded as a crufty dinosaur who is stuck in his ways, and I'm made peace with all of that. What I can't get my head around is watching people use this awesome tool (and it is, admittedly, awesome) to literally just speed up all the mistakes they were already making. Perhaps it is because I am aging, but slowing down and having a think seems more valuable to me now than it ever has, especially when creating something new. AI is powerful and, like any good tool, could be useful in the right hands, but more often than not I see it being used as an accelerant for all the worst parts of product development to appease a market that has suddenly been told they can now pick all three points on the Iron Triangle instead of just two. This makes about as much sense to me as taking a laxitive when you already are suffering diarrhea.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sure are though; they have many processes to automate as well: big corn farmers/factories also have admin, erp, crm, departments with processes etc. There are companies doing billions in revenue with departments of people just copy/pasting PDFs who do real life things like you state who have immediate gains. But they won't do it alone yet and luckily need us. They still benefit though vs the large consultant bus…

They do and there are certainly some mid-level management jobs at risk, but ask any farmer/electrician/millright about the claimed impact of AI and they will laugh. They have yet to see an AI capable of reliably replacing a fuse let alone doing a solid day's work.

Yes, agree with that, but that's usually not the sort of work we talk about here. But sure, robots are close there. All those admin jobs on the other hands...
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