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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#141
post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

> We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms.

That would be lovely.

It's sad that we're being forced to vibe code, though, because my day-to-day experience of that is that the agent does not respect the data structures I feed it, nor the architecture, nor the algorithms.

> Pure vibe coding is dull and unsustainable with current technology for all but the simplest systems; AI-assisted coding, on the other hand, rekindled my passion for computers.

Agreed.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#142

John Carmack is a personal hero of mine, so it pains me to say this: Carmack hasn't produced anything noteworthy since AI was invented, therefore, how productive can it really be? It could be he is doing incredible work in private... but it could also be that he's lost in the weeds, because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite? I remain a skeptic.

[deleted]

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, among all these other people doing 'incredible work' for 30+ years publicly, well into their 50s, John Carmack sure is a disappointment by comparison.

I sense sarcasm. But I think you misinterpreted the parent’s point. I read it as: yes, Carmack has made huge contributions but, has not publicly released anything noteworthy since the advent of AI coding. Of course that doesn’t mean he won’t, just that so far nothing he released has backed up his statement.

Can you imagine a football fan going up to Ronaldo and saying hey, I saw an interview you did last week - I think you may be lost in the weeds there with your training regimen and outlook. I want to let you know - I remain a skeptic.

I mean, when you start scoring goals like you did 5 years ago Ronaldo, but until then, I remain a skeptic about that training regimen.

As for misinterpreting - maybe you're misinterpreting. Or maybe it's unproductive and dare I say presumptuous to reply to people you know nothing about with 'you're probably wrong and I'm probably right'. Do you do that in real life? Working out great, I can only assume given you've adopted a similar approach here, or?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of people don't understand that the joy of making something is not coding but actually being able to build anything I want I expect "a lot of people" understand perfectly well that that's where the joy comes from for you. Do you not understand that other people have different motivations?

coding for the sake of coding is, well, dumb.

The number of down votes the parent comment has seems to me like a litmus test of people who will use AI and those that are just critical of it.

I have my reservations about AI but so far I’ve found ways to make me faster. So I’ll continue to use it but make sure to review my usage regularly.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#145
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just 20 years ago, all the most popular software shipped with NO tests not sure what you're point is here. It sounds similar to "we use to use blood letting and leeches and doctors didn't clean their hands and everything was fine so what are you getting at?" Good tests have real benefits. The fact that people shipped without them in the past in no way suggests they aren't needed or have no point.

Also, 20 years ago SW was tested by QA department and approved before shipping. Don't want to go back to that, but there were testing, just differently.

IMHO getting rid of proper QA done by teams of QA specialists is the main reason for the current software quality crisis (and that already started 15 years ago or so). We should go back to QA teams and proper QA procedures! Automated tests are no replacement, especially when they are set up by the same people designing and building the product.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#146
post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

>AI-assisted coding, on the other hand, rekindled my passion for computers.

I would be interested to know what you mean by AI-assisted coding.

I've been coding for 50 years (40 professionally) and maintain several largish C++ code bases for commercial apps. There is no way that I am going to let an AI scan (train on), let alone edit, my code. But I do ask MSCoPilot questions, basically using it like turbo-charged StackOverflow. And I do get some value from that, even if it is often wrong. Is that what you mean?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#147
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your constructive outlook and I want to believe that we can now focus on the bigger picture, but I'm not really seeing it around me. Most everyone I know that's "AI-pilled" has spent the newfound capacity on throughput instead of altitude. Is anyone actually seeing a shift towards improved structure rather than more code, faster? We seem to be living in the Gatling-gun version of the picture John Carmack drew…

>> Is anyone actually seeing a shift towards improved structure rather than more code, faster? Yes. At work we recently finished a complete rewrite of the platform. The old codebase got abandoned and two new codebases got stood up. Previous stack was Phoenix LiveView and the new one is Phoenix API + Vue /w TypeScript. Zero code shared between the two. We took the opportunity to re-architect a lot of the core function…

That is interesting, but... is it actually improving structure?

We're mid-way through a similar process at work. Rewriting a legacy app in a new language, with new architecture and new features.

And it's a mess.

We're at 10x loc (admittedly, the new programming language is more verbose than the old one), comments make no sense. Yes, we have ~100% coverage, but most of the tests are meaningless. The agent keeps removing our tests to replace them with tests that are easier to pass, breaking code invariants, removing all the engineered data structures and replacing them with stringly-typed code, etc.

And of course, given the number of LoC (and the fact that the agent rewrites so much code all the time), it's physically impossible that all of them were reviewed by a human being.

AI made it possible, insofar as upper management would never have greenlit the project without AI, but I can't escape the feeling that we're building on quicksands.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Is anyone actually seeing a shift towards improved structure rather than more code, faster? Yes. At work we recently finished a complete rewrite of the platform. The old codebase got abandoned and two new codebases got stood up. Previous stack was Phoenix LiveView and the new one is Phoenix API + Vue /w TypeScript. Zero code shared between the two. We took the opportunity to re-architect a lot of the core function…

> For example, there is a 100% test coverage requirement in both server and client, combined with AI-driven review rules that say all tests must be non-vacuous, look, your application works, right? so it doesn't really matter what you or i think, and this is why AI matters. but this, your "100% test coverage" - that is pure slop. just 20 years ago, all the most popular software shipped with NO tests. are you getting…

> just 20 years ago, all the most popular software shipped with NO tests. are you getting it?

Not really?

About 20 years ago, I was working on Firefox and we had millions of tests on CI. I was working on a host of other open source apps and they all had tests (most of them had no CI, of course).

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#149
post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

I kinda of agree, but still believe that writing most of the critical(!) code yourself has long term benefits. IME the initial mental model hardly survives contact with reality and all those little micro decisions that come up during implementation are good to do on your own and have in your own head instead of being buried in an LLM managed decision record where no human ever ventures.

It all depends of course where the code sits between "low level mission critical code" and "high level throw-away code". every non-trivial project has code across that entire range.

E.g. the lower level the code, the more I want to get directly involved, and that may mean typing each line manually to get that code directly into my head (IME for that purpose, writing is better than reading - have that manually written code reviewed by LLM instead).

Of course that only works if you don't have a manager breathing down your neck who insists on prioritising implementation speed over quality ;)

Also you should try assembly coding with modern (non-LLM) tooling, it feels incredibly more productive than with the primitive tools on slow machines of the past.

Also:

> software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms.

Come on, this is was already "normal" decades before LLMs, that's why an entire zoo of high level languages was created which allow to describe a solution in a highly abstract (yet still precise) way. Replacing this high level problem specification in a programming language with a "sloppy" human language specification is arguably even a step back.

(also tbf, I'm writing this comment while sitting in a cafe while the LLM at home is busy coding a GL mocking library ;) (which is exactly the boring type of throwaway code which should be automated)

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#150
I guess in ten years we'll see which is the out of touch Kung Fu master.

I do see a whole set of people doing mystical passes in the air, sometimes with wires holding 'em up, in a set of ritual beliefs propped up by vast accumulations of power, money and pride, not to be questioned.

Didn't expect Carmack to be among those waving his hands about.

If it's so amazing, let's see the amazing thing he does. Go ahead. I'm sure Doom needs a really on-point web page with Inter.

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