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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#91

Post by mawadev »

tkel wrote: post #63
boshalfoshal wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Code in most organizations is a means to an end to produce an actual product. The job of a SWE is to not produce the most sublime readable code with cute language bells and whistles that you can show off to your other programmer friends. Yes its fun to do and interesting, but the main value in writing code is to express your intent so you and other people that are working with you can actually build something of valu…

You're reducing programming to its utility in producing exchange value in the captitalist political economy. That's what "value" means in this context. That's exactly what I'm pointing out. Programming is more than that, if you can think beyond your current economic constraints. Your life's activity ought to be more than just a tool for producing capitalist exchange value. Does cooking food serve any purpose beyond m…

Absolutely correct take. People are so caught up in doing the bidding, they forget what it is all about.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#92

Post by staticautomatic »

turpentine wrote: post #50
glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

> We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. Focusing on data structures, architecture and algorithms is what competency in programming has looked like since forever. Building systems out of smaller pieces gets you there. If your complaint above is that you were struggling with syntax…

Do you remember how bad documentation was? I still have nightmares about Twisted.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#93

Post by skrebbel »

PostOnce wrote: post #88

John Carmack is a personal hero of mine, so it pains me to say this: Carmack hasn't produced anything noteworthy since AI was invented, therefore, how productive can it really be? It could be he is doing incredible work in private... but it could also be that he's lost in the weeds, because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite? I remain a skeptic.

> because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite

Wow that resonated by a scary amount.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#94

Post by mawadev »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #48

HN is loaded with out of touch Kung Fu masters. They were the loudest skeptics against AI. Still a lot here. It's human nature. If your identity is defined by your kung fu and a technology is about to obsolesce your kung fu, then all logic goes out the window as you go all out in protecting your identity. It's mostly for themselves. They have to lie to themselves and tell themselves that they still "matter".

I honestly feel personally attacked by this and I don't consider myself to be an out of touch kung fu master or technologist at all. It is just very odd to read such an inflammatory comment on HN and then have people pretend this is correct and perfectly socially acceptable to say.

Like put your shoes into the person you are arguing against, with some empathy, would you want to be treated this way?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#95

Post by kalaksi »

hansvm wrote: post #66
enraged_camel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably averaging 70. 9 devs and 1 QA engineer.

Assuming the LLM never got anything wrong or otherwise had to be re-prompted, that means your devs were reviewing 130 SLOC per hour, on what was described as moderately greenfield (examining new implementations rather than comparing to old historical accidents). How? I don't want to sound flippant, but if the point is to add human thought to the mix, that's a high review rate even when examining small tweaks to an ex…

Is that actually a high review rate? Especially if you know the language and domain. Sure, initially there's a learning curve for a new codebase structure, but lots of lines will also be trivial and many changes might also be similar to each other.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#96

Post by _zoltan_ »

glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

a lot of people don't understand that the joy of making something is not coding but actually being able to build anything I want. AI just made it 50x better, as exactly as you said, we don't need to deal with the useless junk (what's the API syntax? what's the library syntax? oh it changed in the last 3 versions, let me look up the new API, this and that...).

it's great.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#97

Post by _zoltan_ »

turpentine wrote: post #50
glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

> We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. Focusing on data structures, architecture and algorithms is what competency in programming has looked like since forever. Building systems out of smaller pieces gets you there. If your complaint above is that you were struggling with syntax…

> Focusing on data structures, architecture and algorithms is what competency in programming has looked like since forever

yes, being able to bang out leetcode hard from head on an interview on paper matters so much... oh wait. it does not.

in the real world, outside of interview questions, it hardly matters. when it comes there, I'll optimizite it, but getting the first system up and running in a way I want is way more fun & challenging. need a lock free ringbuffer? I'll look up what's the latest way to build it. or just ask my AI.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#100

Post by einpoklum »

sriram_malhar wrote: post #31

Everyone who writes enthusiastically about AI already has the benefit of having worked without AI. They have been schooled in the basics. Enough of us know about data structures, concurrency, networks, language design etc. from the ground up that the knowledge is passed on. I worry about the world that we will be living in when a whole generation has skipped learning the basics the hard way. Given the attendance rate…

I read your first sentence as:

> Everyone who writes enthusiastically about AI already has the benefit of not having worked with AI

... because if you really do, and you actaully a capable developer, you become much less enthusiastic.

Anyway, definitely agree with your point, and let us also remember that it is our human output and expression which LLMs are trained on.

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