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Fuck it, make it anyway

joelotter.com

591–600 of 613 posts

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#591

Look, folks. I'm an old man and pretty much out of the workforce at this point in my life. But what I see in these comments day, after day is rather pitiful. As your Uncle John, I'm going to give you a lecture: From the article: >I can’t really blame anyone who’s just gone along with things Whst is this supposed to mean "blame"? Do you "blame" people for driving cars instead of riding horses? Do you "blame" software…

>Whst is this supposed to mean "blame"?

In my domain, we call it "selling out". It's not blameless, but for people who function in modern society we all likely have done similar things. So it's hard to blame them.

>the technology wave you rode to a well-paying job was always going to be short-lived for the majority of programmers.

Sounds easy to say when your context is "I'm an old man and pretty much out of the workforce at this point in my life.". If I could just turn programming into a hobby today and retool myself into, say, an accountant in a year I would not be anywhere near as bitter.

But no. Instead it's more like you're falling through the cracks of society and will be unable to ever reach your status. some circles are calling this the "permanent underclass". People don't tend to react well to doing what they were told to do and then having rewards yanked from them in real time.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do this before AI, though. Just download a big repo off github and build the binaries yourself. Or is that not enough obfuscation to convince yourself you made it?

Never would have. I love the argument that “AI code doesn’t feel like mine :(“ but you’ll use some shit library from 12 years ago?? Are any of you actually developers? Ffs

Well no I, wasn't doing that either. Because it would be kind of silly to take someone else's code and say "I made this" just because I ran some build script, wouldn't it?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent hundreds of hours on this, so there is still some friction. If I told you the exact market and use case, I'd still have a decent head start, but indeed, someone without a job could invest more time than I do. People in a cheaper location can work for far cheaper than I can afford to. With head start I don't meant that the idea is so novel that I need to keep it a secret. However, I believe that if there is an…

Despair is a choice some people have made, and they want to drag others into it to justify their inaction. Take your best shot. Maybe it takes off, maybe it doesn't. Either way, it's a hell of a lot better than being a replyguy.

>it's a hell of a lot better than being a replyguy.

It's best to live by your own words

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#594

This is 80% ego talking and 20% fear of change. The comment about hobby vs. work is correct, and it’s the crux of this. OP is attempting to console themselves. “I shouldn’t have to change to avoid ‘falling behind.’ I like how I’m doing it. I’m good at what I do.” The fact of the matter is the LLMs can be used to produce effective work faster than you. Yes. You are falling behind. And yes, it will reduce your value in…

What in the world? I’ve built a thing by hand before and enjoyed the process of doing it. I don’t think I’m unique in that. I’ve also built many things with AI and enjoyed them much less. I think the reason so many people are frustrated is that they _know_ they are falling behind, they _know_ the thing that they like doing is not something they can easily get employed to do. That sucks. Do you actually believe that p…

>I think the reason so many people are frustrated is that they _know_ they are falling behind, they _know_ the thing that they like doing is not something they can easily get employed to do.

I'm frustrated because I'm in a den of thieves and no one sees anything wrong with it. These constant "car vs. horse carriage" metaphors miss the whole point, and isn't even correct (a car did not need to reference a horse).

People love talking about how efficient LLMs made them but don't ever seem to acknowledge how this is also linked to how scams and grifts have gone through the roof. I get 20+ spam calls a day and need to wade around a sea of slop just to enjoy my day-to-day. That's on top of a mess of a job market with thousands of fake resumes clogging up recruiter boxes, rampant cheating in schools, and the entire mess that is my country's politics.

It's not just "fear of losing my job" (I lost that long ago, I adapted and did what I needed to do to survive). I've had to constantly adapt all my life, that's not the primary issue. But adaptation comes with the expectation of new goals and passions and overall optimism of the fututre. That's not the case at all right now.

The issue is everything else around me literally collapsing and yet people are just sipping their tea here acting like it's just AI envy. The gaslighting is annoying, the apathy is alarming. If no one else is going to pick up the broken glass, what's the point of anything?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#595

If I were an artist, I wouldn't really care that a machine took over the role of drawing lines on paper, and as a programmer, I don't care that the machines are taking the role of writing code. The thing that actually matters is understanding the problem domain, and thinking about and visualizing the program I am trying to make, so I am happy to be doing less drudge work so I can focus on what really matters. I've be…

>If I were an artist, I wouldn't really care that a machine took over the role of drawing lines on paper

Well you already explained why you're not an artist.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#596

I've had some form of this conversation several times in the past few months: Me: "Holy cow, LLMs are getting good. You should take another look at how good recent tools are because without them we're going to get left behind." Them: "But I like writing code!" Which is cool, but completely irrelevant in the context of a career. Write all the software you want. Paint all the pictures you want. Carve wood. Build a boat…

>Now is the time a lot of us should be contemplating our next move in life. Not easy given we're about to enter a period of utter economic chaos that makes the industrial revolution look tame.

And what of those still in school or just graduating? They never got a life to move on from. Do they just drown due to the folly of systems set in motion long before they were born?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And why can't that apply to people who use generative AI? Because they did not do anything? Theres nothing to celebrate, no skill to honor, no sweat and tears to salute. It just exists

>Theres nothing to celebrate, no skill to honor, no sweat and tears to salute. I don't care about any of that. I just want people to be able to see what's in my mind's eye at the highest fidelity possible.

The thing, which anyone who's ever done any type of art realizes, is that 99% of the time, there isn't really such a thing as a high fidelity image in your mind's eye.

You feel like there is... But the minute you try to bring it into creation, you find out just how absurdly fuzzy it really is. A non-artist might believe that the failure of bringing your mind image to life is a failure of _skill_. That you are just physically incapable of accurately reproducing the thing you're picturing in your head.

While that might well be a factor, it's never the whole story.

That's most clear with writing. Anyone who's ever written anything of substance has had the experience of having what feels like a pretty solid story/thesis/whatever. But the minute you try actually writing, you realize just how fuzzy that idea really was. You have to work and labor at it to make it become something coherent. It's not a limitation in mechanical skill: typing absolute non-sense is exactly the same difficulty as typing the a NYT best seller. The difficulty is in the deciding what to type.

A huge portion of art is in that part of the process. Exploring ways to bring into existence not _the image you had in your mind_, because there's no such thing. But to bring into existence something that makes you _feel_ the same way the fuzzy idea in your head made you feel.

And that's the thing that AI does not, and fundamentally cannot, give you. All the innumerable micro choices your mind does as you try to gradient descend that raw log of wood into the carving of a bear.

Looking at an AI output and deciding whether it happens to match the fuzzy idea you had enough or not, simply isn't the same thing. I'm not even saying that it's not valuable or useful, it certainly can be. But it's fundamentally not _art_. That's the reason Rick Rubin, for all the praise he (deservedly!) gets for all his work, does not describe himself an _artist_. It's just not the thing he is doing. He doesn't create, he evaluates. And if you take that for what it is, that's absolutely fine, great even, when you're as good as he is.

But if you believe the evaluating is, as you put, "seeing what's in your mind's eye at the highest fidelity possible", that's simply untrue. And it _cannot_ be true, because there isn't actually a thing that's in your mind's eye in a way that would allow for that, regardless of whether you're using AI or creating it by hand. Using AI just gives you the illusion that there ever was such a thing.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#598

The reason for this is, I guess, all too familiar for anyone in a creative field: surprise, it’s generative AI. The ongoing devaluation of the work of artists and makers, chewed up and regurgitated back to us like a mother feeding a baby bird with a subscription model. I have some hope for my friends in other artistic fields; AI art is shit, kind of by definition anti-art, embarrassing to look at and cringe-inducing…

>Good AI art takes time and effort and taste and usually some amount of traditional skills.

Sure. But I think it's more than safe to say, that the rotten barrel of rotten apples easily makes the 1-2 "high effort AI art" apples rotten as well. If the entire internet wasn't flooded with slop, it'd be harder to argue that AI is a slop generator. But well... the proof is in the pudding.

>There is room for all of it

The flood of slop begs to differ. I'm used to needing to wade through lakes of horrible low quality crap to find gems I seek. But the friction needed is immense. If that kind of effort is needed to traverse social media, the reaction will not be tame.

>I'm sick of having to skulk around in the shadows with the things I've made for fear of tripping some Shrill Cancel Protocol.

Then you should be as angry at the slop generators as the anti-AI crowd. You're affected by it too, after all.

>And if you're worried about your traditional art job, organize

That is the only shining light as of late. Lot more news of game studios actually unionizing. Better late than never.

>AI isn't the problem.

Nope, not primarily. It's who wields them and stands to beneit. Which of course is the wealthy owners. It's always the wealthy owners.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#599
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what craft though? That is to say - I don't really love programming. I do it out of necessity. Before product managers got looked at as 'too much headcount in an org', I kind of think I would have liked that. I like the outcomes. I like tools that I like to use. I like writing tools and software and systems that work for me. I also like the outcomes for OTHER people. In my line of work, things working is really impor…

If you can't see craft in programming, then you're most certainly fully replaceable by LLMs. And I mean fully. The "no, but you see, the important part is what I do!" replies get really tiresome after a while.

probably, i can go work on cars instead.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#600
post #21

Pretty unusual to see the /r/aiwars slapfights (here presented without touching on any of the obvious rebuttals) make it HN, but I guess it makes sense. I'm sure a sizeable majority of the US population agrees that visual art that involves neural networks at any point is dogmatically Satanic, so that probably includes at least ~40-60% of this crowd, too. It's also a little disheartening for me to see people crashing…

>It is a world in which video game designers get to make higher quality games faster really such a bad one?

If that's what was happening it would be great. But we already saw the mobile market as a canary in the coalmine for how this shakes out, and the Steam marketplace is going that direction too. Lots of stuff out there very much not even worth a download, let alone worth paying for and hoping to derive enjoyment from. It may be hedging on overused at this point but: it's a sea of slop right now and curation is needed more than ever. That's not a future you get with more quality games coming out.

Steam is a great example because objectively you can assess some hard figures on if these are "quality". I'm not doing such a study, but I wouldn't be surprised if key metrics like revenue per game have cratered in the last decade in part because there's just so much generated slop that is getting very little attention, but accumulates to make browsing for new releases a pain.

People aren't biting per game, but it's so cheap that even a few purchases is enough for asset flip essque games to keep on going and roll the slot a thousand times over. This isn't a tastemaking assessment as much as a cold, hard assessment of how consumers are reacting to the current situation.

>Would a radical shakeup of the video game world really be such a disaster?

With current consumer sentiment: yes. Frustrated consumers who still demand quality will simply not buy new games without a lot of social momentum. Everyone loses out except the asset flippers.

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