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Fuck it, make it anyway

joelotter.com

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Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#521

Post by sheepolog »

MPSimmons wrote: post #469

IMO there's more than one valid reason to make things. Some people make things from a pragmatic standpoint - they need a solution in a space where the existing solutions don't fit for some reason, and they decide to make their own. This is, I think, the majority of generative AI coding. A solution needs to be filled, and even if you are an amazing coder, for most of the solution space, AI is going to be faster than y…

100%. There's a spectrum of SEs in this thread. On one end of the sprectrum, programming is a means to an end. As long as they get the cool thing at the end, they don't care how they got it. On the other end of the spectrum, the programming is the reward. They're interested in making cool stuff, but the really fun part is in writing it themselves.

It's like someone who uses CNC to make cool wooden sculptures, vs someone who painstakingly crafts them by hand. The industry used to reward the workers who knew how to make stuff by hand. Now, someone's invented a CNC machine. The CNC workers are asking "what's the point of doing it slower?" and the hand craftspeople are asking "what's the point of doing something I don't enjoy?"

At the end of the day, there is room for both types of people in the industry. In an era of automated textiles, some people still make a living selling clothing knit by humans. But as the machines get better and better, those who make things by hand will become less valued and will have to compete with each other for the "artisan" label.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#522

Post by dahart »

dimes wrote: post #517
jschveibinz wrote: post #509

Look, folks. I'm an old man and pretty much out of the workforce at this point in my life. But what I see in these comments day, after day is rather pitiful. As your Uncle John, I'm going to give you a lecture: From the article: >I can’t really blame anyone who’s just gone along with things Whst is this supposed to mean "blame"? Do you "blame" people for driving cars instead of riding horses? Do you "blame" software…

“Just suck it up” coming from a person who doesn’t have to deal with the consequences has to be the least convincing take on the situation I’ve heard by far. So congrats on that. To offer a perspective from someone in the field: I built my career as a craftsman. Not just my livelihood, but my family’s livelihood depended on this craft. And within a few short months, my value has plummeted. I’ve tried to adapt, but I…

> There is no amount of adaptation what is within grasp

What are you arguing for? What choices do have have?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#523

Post by [deleted] »

01100011 wrote: post #137

I've had some form of this conversation several times in the past few months: Me: "Holy cow, LLMs are getting good. You should take another look at how good recent tools are because without them we're going to get left behind." Them: "But I like writing code!" Which is cool, but completely irrelevant in the context of a career. Write all the software you want. Paint all the pictures you want. Carve wood. Build a boat…

[deleted]

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#524

Post by sheepybloke »

timcobb wrote: post #91

My first thought after reading this was, good for this person to have only been broken, or nearly broken, I guess, by society finally now. I was broken long before AI. I learned that no one was interested in my doodads even before generative AI. People were interested in all this other stuff, like ROI, how much money things make, how practical something is, etc. "No one cares about the code" was beat into me 10-20 ye…

This is partially why my pride in my work is not around my code, but the product or output it creates. People care that the interfaces are good, the code style matches, and that it's maintainable. But they don't really care if it's clever or smart or creative. To me, the creativity is in the product, the tool, in what the code does. AI lets me be more creative in the tools I build because I can justify taking the time to build them. I can create more interesting products because I can get past the mundane.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#525

Post by flufluflufluffy »

jschveibinz wrote: post #509

Look, folks. I'm an old man and pretty much out of the workforce at this point in my life. But what I see in these comments day, after day is rather pitiful. As your Uncle John, I'm going to give you a lecture: From the article: >I can’t really blame anyone who’s just gone along with things Whst is this supposed to mean "blame"? Do you "blame" people for driving cars instead of riding horses? Do you "blame" software…

Can you chill Uncle John? It’s ok to have feelings, you know. And this post was literally about how the author is figuring out how to go forward, in their own way.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#526

Post by amelius »

jjulius wrote: post #520
dimes wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Just suck it up” coming from a person who doesn’t have to deal with the consequences has to be the least convincing take on the situation I’ve heard by far. So congrats on that. To offer a perspective from someone in the field: I built my career as a craftsman. Not just my livelihood, but my family’s livelihood depended on this craft. And within a few short months, my value has plummeted. I’ve tried to adapt, but I…

Everything's ephemeral. C'est la vie.

Yeah but horses to cars is insignificant compared to an AI that is going to swallow us all. We don't even have time to make new career choices because AI will catch up faster than we can think.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#527

Post by shit_game »

abstractcontrol wrote: post #349

If I were an artist, I wouldn't really care that a machine took over the role of drawing lines on paper, and as a programmer, I don't care that the machines are taking the role of writing code. The thing that actually matters is understanding the problem domain, and thinking about and visualizing the program I am trying to make, so I am happy to be doing less drudge work so I can focus on what really matters. I've be…

"I am not , but if I were, I'd have about it." isn't a terribly convincing argument. Opinions (good ones, at least) are shaped by experience - what experience is there to shape your opinion on AI affecting art when you aren't an artist?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#528

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

codazoda wrote: post #177
goonersallofyou wrote: post #53

> the output doesn’t feel like mine, and I take no pride in what it produces. So much this. I don't understand how some people seem to have no self awareness or shame in saying "I build X" where "X" was entirely prompted by an LLM. It's like ordering a meal from door dash and calling yourself a chef.

That is almost to say that the only part of the project that matters is the code. But the code is only a tiny part. I take joy in describing the thing and bringing that vision to life.

> "I take joy in describing the thing and bringing that vision to life."

That's what management pats itself on the back for doing, the only difference being that it's taking credit for the work the LLM does instead of taking credit for the work of human subordinates. The trope of the "ideas guy" is derided for a reason.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#529

Post by dayofthedaleks »

jjulius wrote: post #520
dimes wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Just suck it up” coming from a person who doesn’t have to deal with the consequences has to be the least convincing take on the situation I’ve heard by far. So congrats on that. To offer a perspective from someone in the field: I built my career as a craftsman. Not just my livelihood, but my family’s livelihood depended on this craft. And within a few short months, my value has plummeted. I’ve tried to adapt, but I…

Everything's ephemeral. C'est la vie.

memento mori

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#530

Post by sigseg1v »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #351
EQYV wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate that you are reducing my craft to just the end results and nothing else. No value in my expertise or knowledge, all of the hours slogging through blog posts, IT forums, stackoverflow and technical pdfs and you have reduced that to "well what can you build for me?" Perhaps this comment spells the end of my account but I can’t not say this. What you can create for your employer is and always was the ONLY reaso…

> You are not hired for your suffering, your experience, the time you spent learning everything you know OTHER THAN insofar as it helps deliver your employer value. Yes obviously. But consider: In the past my employer and I were aligned. We agreed that in order for me to create more value for them I also had to enrich myself by learning new stuff so I could use that learning to better provide value to them Now that i…

Why would you stop learning new things? I lead a team of developers as part of my current role, reviewing and approving what they work on (in addition to doing development and architecture design as well) and from my experience, the difference in someone who has spent time building up their skills in how to do agentic development with AI is so insane. One person can build more than an entire team in some cases, while maintaining quality and needing little to no feedback, yet others using the same AI tools struggle to get anything done. How is this not a skill issue and why would one conclude that you need to stop learning if this is the case?
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