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Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

latimes.com

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Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#131

Post by cucumber3732842 »

stackghost wrote: post #46
kelnos wrote: post #3

I'm really torn on this. This particular situation, at face value at least, sounds like a good outcome. Kids had a gun, someone noticed, called police, situation handled without escalation or violence or something tragic happening. But this doesn't generalize. Another incident described in the article was when some kids were drinking in the car and shooting toy guns. What if they hadn't been drinking? What if they we…

> What happens when cops are allowed real-time access to Waymo's in-car video footage? Same thing that happens whenever cops get new surveillance powers. They’ll use it to stalk and harass women.

The size and scale of that problem absolutely pales in comparison to the number of people who will be screwed by a better ability to enforce unpopular or rarely enforced laws.

And the sick part is how many useful idiots will go to bat for all of it because "well they broke the law after all"

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#132

Post by AngryData »

willsmith72 wrote: post #124
kelnos wrote: post #3

I'm really torn on this. This particular situation, at face value at least, sounds like a good outcome. Kids had a gun, someone noticed, called police, situation handled without escalation or violence or something tragic happening. But this doesn't generalize. Another incident described in the article was when some kids were drinking in the car and shooting toy guns. What if they hadn't been drinking? What if they we…

> What if Waymo thought the guns were real, called the cops, and the cops screwed up and shot one of the kids? See this is only an issue because that is a plausible situation. The actual problem is on the police/cultural side, not the waymo side. No one should even have to think about this when calling the cops. And I can't think of 1 other western society where they do

This is America though. The mere presense of a gun shouldn't involve calling the cops unless there is a bigger reason to expect something nefarious. US cops being thugs and aggressive is a known fact so I find it hard to say Waymo isn't part of the problem, they have the best view of the situation after all and are initiating the call/report of armed criminals.

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#133

Post by AngryData »

phoronixrly wrote: post #6
kelnos wrote: post #3

I'm really torn on this. This particular situation, at face value at least, sounds like a good outcome. Kids had a gun, someone noticed, called police, situation handled without escalation or violence or something tragic happening. But this doesn't generalize. Another incident described in the article was when some kids were drinking in the car and shooting toy guns. What if they hadn't been drinking? What if they we…

I was going to say that this is the only surveillance that I would be OK with, considering the users are not on public property. However, I hadn't considered that calling the police on anyone in the US (especially for carrying a firearm) does not carry the same consequences as elsewhere...

Yeah, most (but perhaps not a super majority of) people in the US know calling the cops has a large chance of excalating a situation and making it deadly, especially if a gun is mentioned in any context.

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#134

Post by cucumber3732842 »

lemmetellya wrote: post #26

Wait, can I not carry in a Waymo? Found their rules page: "Do not carry weapons of any kind in the car" That seems... naive? Plenty of people carry pepper spray or a knife with them. Not even ever intending to use them as a weapon. When I go to the range, I travel with a locked case that contains my pistol, which inside has a cable lock. I couldn't take that through a waymo? What about some kid buying a goofy mall ka…

>Found their rules page: "Do not carry weapons of any kind in the car"

Corporate speak for "concealed means concealed"

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#135

Post by cucumber3732842 »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #90
lemmetellya wrote: post #26

Wait, can I not carry in a Waymo? Found their rules page: "Do not carry weapons of any kind in the car" That seems... naive? Plenty of people carry pepper spray or a knife with them. Not even ever intending to use them as a weapon. When I go to the range, I travel with a locked case that contains my pistol, which inside has a cable lock. I couldn't take that through a waymo? What about some kid buying a goofy mall ka…

In California, it's surprisingly hard to be a legal, responsible gun owner if you don't own your own car. Rideshare bans weapons via TOS, public transit (even unloaded in a locked container) is illegal.

That's the point (like for all this stuff, going back a hundred years, not just in CA). Don't extend the right to anyone who doesn't have a bunch of wealth to lose that the state can threaten to get compliance.

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#136

Post by AngryData »

bot403 wrote: post #8
kelnos wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between a human present who can make a decision based on a situation literally in front of their eyes, and a computer flagging a video feed for someone in what amounts to a call center to look at and decide on. Not to mention the mass surveillance this sort of stuff continues to help enable.

I'm not a fan of expanding surveillance but the alternative of unmonitored transit seems worse. Going to shoot up a place? Take your guns on a waymo. It won't complain. Guy wants to take an obviously distressed and co-erced girl to an abandoned lot? No complaints. Person with obvious head injury and slurring speech wants to go home instead of the hospital? Sure. Person has heart attack and passes out in back? We'll j…

Those are made up problems because 90% of the time people drive their own vehicle or are with a willing participant. We don't have cameras watching us in normal cars.

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#137

Post by amelius »

kelnos wrote: post #3

I'm really torn on this. This particular situation, at face value at least, sounds like a good outcome. Kids had a gun, someone noticed, called police, situation handled without escalation or violence or something tragic happening. But this doesn't generalize. Another incident described in the article was when some kids were drinking in the car and shooting toy guns. What if they hadn't been drinking? What if they we…

I mean if you're using toy guns you're in for trouble. Do you take toy guns on a flight?

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#138

Post by AngryData »

parineum wrote: post #121
kelnos wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between a human present who can make a decision based on a situation literally in front of their eyes, and a computer flagging a video feed for someone in what amounts to a call center to look at and decide on. Not to mention the mass surveillance this sort of stuff continues to help enable.

Would you be upset if someone at the WalMart central data center called the local police because they saw someone with a gun in a Walmart at a remote location? That's what happened here. A private company saw a gun inside their property and called the police.

I would be unless there was a posted no guns sign. Remote areas are were it is most appropriate to have a gun for personal protection.

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#139

Post by deet »

kelnos wrote: post #3

I'm really torn on this. This particular situation, at face value at least, sounds like a good outcome. Kids had a gun, someone noticed, called police, situation handled without escalation or violence or something tragic happening. But this doesn't generalize. Another incident described in the article was when some kids were drinking in the car and shooting toy guns. What if they hadn't been drinking? What if they we…

If we are going to privilege privately operated transportation providers like Waymo with special access to streets relative to individually operated vehicles, we need to rethink whether a private company's terms of service should govern the rights and privileges of users of such services or if users should have more substantial protections.

Waymo has chosen to monitor travelers in a way that drivers of their own cars would not be monitored, while the government has chosen to ban privately owned vehicles from some spaces (like Market Street in San Francisco). This coerces individuals into sacrificing privacy and other rights.

Imagine if your phone company listened to all your calls and reported you to the police if it didn't like something you say.

And what happens when a private company like Waymo partners with a municipality to integrate into its transportation network? Is that now privately operated vehicle or part of a public space system like a sidewalk or the road itself?

Waymo is not like mass transit or even a taxi: only one group of passengers are in the vehicle at a time. Subway and bus rules don't cleanly apply. It's closer to a rental car that drives itself.

We as a society are turning to rely on or even require private companies for much of our essential infrastructure and interpersonal fabric: communications, payments (decline of cash) transportation, surveillance (Flock), places of congregation (virtual town squares), etc. Meanwhile because they are private they are not bound to privacy and other protections like the state itself.

We should rethink this direction.

Re: Waymo pulls over, calls cops on juvenile riders who had 'ghost gun"

#140

Post by stickfigure »

analog31 wrote: post #69
leopoldj wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not encourage your children to carry and brandish replica guns. This is never a good idea. Unfortunately I see this more frequently than I like. Kids don't just carry, they aim and pretend to shoot. Even in an open carry state like Florida brandishing a gun is illegal.

I know, it's a different world. I'm 62. As a kid, my friends and I chased one another around the neighborhood with toy guns for hours, raising a racket. My kids are 24 and 26 now, but it would have been unthinkable to let them have toy guns.

I'm in my 50s and did the same. But even then the toy guns were often bright orange.

Nerf guns are the modern equivalent of our dart guns and kids run around with them today all the time. They are pretty unmistakeable, I'm sure by design.

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