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Fuck it, make it anyway

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Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#351

Post by bluefirebrand »

EQYV wrote: post #333
bluefirebrand wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs to me are just another tool. They help me get what I wanted (an app, a game, a web site). I'm still directing. It's still my idea, with the features/look I want. My design choices still make the end project. > I really don't get the hate I hate that you are reducing my craft to just the end results and nothing else. No value in my expertise or knowledge, all of the hours slogging through blog posts, IT forums,…

> I hate that you are reducing my craft to just the end results and nothing else. No value in my expertise or knowledge, all of the hours slogging through blog posts, IT forums, stackoverflow and technical pdfs and you have reduced that to "well what can you build for me?" Perhaps this comment spells the end of my account but I can’t not say this. What you can create for your employer is and always was the ONLY reaso…

> You are not hired for your suffering, your experience, the time you spent learning everything you know OTHER THAN insofar as it helps deliver your employer value.

Yes obviously. But consider:

In the past my employer and I were aligned. We agreed that in order for me to create more value for them I also had to enrich myself by learning new stuff so I could use that learning to better provide value to them

Now that is no longer the case. Now my employer and I are no longer aligned. The equation is now stacked heavily in favor of employers, at the expense of people like me not getting what I want out of the arrangement other than a paycheck

Yeah, fine. Most people only work for a paycheck. I'm not really worse off than anyone else in that regard. I'm still mad that I arranged my life so I did have a better arrangement for myself and now I do not thanks to the greediest assholes on the planet

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#352

Post by rmast »

sicktriple wrote: post #244
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would absolutely make sense for someone who enjoys cycling to buy a pedal-assist e-bike, especially if they e.g. moved to a hillier area, sustained an injury, or just started having their strength/stamina decline with age. (incidentally, the proliferation of unregistered/unlicensed motorcycles marketed as "e-bikes" has done enormous damage to the viability of e-bikes as a general category)

It's called metaphor. Please reserve your erm akshully's for someone else.

That appears to be using your metaphor and pointing out how being a cyclist and using an e-bike aren’t mutually exclusive. (I do know multiple avid cyclists that own e-bikes as one of several bikes they own and ride).

Ripping off the metaphor for a moment, it was basically extending what you said to point out that being a coder and using LLMs aren’t mutually exclusive.

(Asking them to reserve erm akshully’s for someone else came across as rather dismissive sounding of their thoughts, which from a former bystander in this thread appeared legitimate and just a continuation of using your own metaphor).

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#353

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

Below is an example convo leading to the the title phrase being used on the AI side of things. Programmers and systems engineers need to wake up to our collective responsibility. It is through putting our heads down that's leading to us not collectively organizing to put an end to systems of global domination & oppression. If you aren't willing to acknowledge the responsibility that comes with the power to create life-changing systems, it's time to just quit and go do something else. It's the most responsible path in that face of being unwilling to switch to building for liberation instead of for oppression. Everyone has their reasons, but the main one is a dependence on existing systems and ways of doing things instead of learning to build communities to care for us. I'm in the same boat. Anyway, we all need to collectively step up and realize that the military publicly acknowledges cyber warriors as their greatest asset means that we have a duty to protect the people with the tech we build, instead of continue driving enslavement to it. Check your beliefs...do they serve the standard deaths and need to evolve to center the conditions that sustain life?

"So do we finally resolve the issues of ecocide, genocides, pandemic, and mass systems of oppression?...

Or do we build another advancement of tech foote these hells to capture?

Remember: making the second thing will likely take us way closer to extinction."

"Which makes more money?"

"The first path likely kills money as we know it, so there's no comparison. Making the second one makes more money in the short term, but then extinction."

"Fuck it, make it anyway"

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#354

Post by hax0ron3 »

pastel8739 wrote: post #257
imdsm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is eery to read, as I've been thinking something very similar recently whilst discussing gen AI with a close friend who works in tech but isn't a developer, who now uses AI to build everything he wished he could. Meanwhile I've seen other people, colleagues, friends, who are programmers get incredibly frustrated about AI and it's almost entirely that it lets non-developers make things. The feeling I get is that…

> The people who are happy about this change, are those who would answer a programmer's job is to produce value. This is sort of meaningless; the purpose of _every_ job is to produce value. The reason I chose to be a software engineer is because I enjoy solving the kinds of problems that it involved, not because it would allow me to deliver value to companies. Changing what a programmer does is _changing the job_, an…

If I could get paid a Bay Area software engineering salary to clean the bathroom instead, I think I would actually prefer to clean the bathroom. Software engineering requires me to actually use a large part of my mind. Cleaning the bathroom, on the other hand, would leave my mind largely free to think whatever I feel like. The physical movement is probably better for the body, too.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#355

Post by regenschutz »

abstractcontrol wrote: post #349

If I were an artist, I wouldn't really care that a machine took over the role of drawing lines on paper, and as a programmer, I don't care that the machines are taking the role of writing code. The thing that actually matters is understanding the problem domain, and thinking about and visualizing the program I am trying to make, so I am happy to be doing less drudge work so I can focus on what really matters. I've be…

>LLMs aren't even AI, […]

I am very curious to know what you classify as AI then. Do you mean that LLMs aren't artificial? Or aren't intelligent?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#356

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

MachineMan wrote: post #10

In general creators must do some honest introspection. Did you enjoy the crafts, or did you enjoy the compliments? Did you enjoy the difficult puzzles or the identity derived from a career that gives you the reputation and perceived value of someone who can do a thing most people can’t? Did you enjoy the code itself or the accomplishment of seeing your ideas brought to life? Who remains when the thing you do no longe…

We all have intrinsic value being threatened by these systems and technologists (particularly systems/software engineers and programmers) have a responsibility to build systems to help humans meet their everyday needs without or with minimal oppression (only as a stepping stone to full removal/prevention).

Chasing the feelings is a distraction game everyone is doing using their preferred fields/hobbies.

Now is the time to gather and reorganize because the oppressors are for sure doing it.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#357

Post by bigmadshoe »

namr2000 wrote: post #288
bigmadshoe wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't bring anything to life. You just described it.

I mostly agree with this sentiment, and have a hard time describing anything LLM generated as "mine". However, would you say that the designers at Apple, or Steve Jobs for example didn't "bring the Macintosh to life" because they didn't work on any of the engineering or code? It's a hard line to draw.

Leading a collaborative effort can obviously be described as bringing the project to life. People want to feel like they are collaborating with LLMs and are still the visionary in the process. As the performance of these systems improves that becomes less and less the case.

E.g. if Steve Jobs had simply handed a slip of paper to a team that said "make a new kind of computer", then no, he would not have brought the Macintosh to life.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#358

Post by tjeerdnet »

01100011 wrote: post #137

I've had some form of this conversation several times in the past few months: Me: "Holy cow, LLMs are getting good. You should take another look at how good recent tools are because without them we're going to get left behind." Them: "But I like writing code!" Which is cool, but completely irrelevant in the context of a career. Write all the software you want. Paint all the pictures you want. Carve wood. Build a boat…

I have been developing software professionally for about 25 years now and worked on different code bases and for different companies. I was relatively enthousiastic when I started programming, but looking back I had my ups and downs when working as a software engineer. Things became repetitive and it is often mostly about shuffling data around. And especially the last few years I was wondering if I wanted to do this till my retirement. It was getting more and more boring.

Then AI arrived a few years ago and two years ago I was still in hybrid mode, so partially using AI to lookup some code or generate some stuff and doing old school coding by hand. Last year I got a new job and from day one I am doing all software development in AI. I never want to go back to the old way of developing everything by hand. So many ideas I had in the past would cost too much time and money to even try. Now I can try five different solutions for a feature in a single day and select the one that fits best.

I was influenced and learned also a lot from older developers who were in their 50s to be sort of proud on coding, but that is fading away very hard. I also don't see code as something personal anymore or something I should be proud of. But I am proud of what I can create with AI nowadays, functionally. And I also found out that I like the creativity of making things more than the often boring coding.

When I see the AI generated code I think it looks really really well written. Of course it helps to steer it with certain design patterns or solutions you prefer, that's the one skill that is actually very valueable to be able to prompt well.

In the end the most important thing for the business owner is that things are working, they mostly don't every care about your code.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#359

Post by djkurlander »

mpbart wrote: post #327
springtimesun wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has to be a changing economic undertone to it as well. For a lot of years, the craft that many people enjoyed also happened to pay well and had significant barriers to entry. It's easy to like the craft when it pays you well. The though experiment I would propose to programmers who only want to write the code is, would you do it if it was paid and regarded like an artist is? You pursue it for its own purpose kn…

As a career? Almost certainly not but I do think I (and probably many others on hn) would still do it as a hobby

Yes. And in retirement, I still code because I like the process of creating (hopefully cool) things. Even without remuneration. Ideally things that other people will use and benefit from in some way.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#360

Post by 59percentmore »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #242
socalgal2 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just see it as tool. Used to be you had to calculate things by hand on paper. Then we got calculators, then spreadsheets. Complaining that by hand was better seems line nonsense. I'm old enough to have taken typing lessons in high school on typewriters with real ink and needed to use white-out to fix things and if there are too many mistakes having to start over from scratch. I don't want to go back. Construction w…

> LLMs to me are just another tool. They help me get what I wanted (an app, a game, a web site). I'm still directing. It's still my idea, with the features/look I want. My design choices still make the end project. > I really don't get the hate I hate that you are reducing my craft to just the end results and nothing else. No value in my expertise or knowledge, all of the hours slogging through blog posts, IT forums,…

>It's not just you, your attitude is very common, what else am I supposed to do except hate it?

---

>have "problem"

>don't care

>have no problem

Life is literally so easy.

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