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A misalignment of AI in mathematics

mathandai.org

421–430 of 451 posts

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#422
post #125

As a mathematician maybe I am a little more optimistic than this declaration. I am thinking of Mochizuki's abc conjecture: He worked in relative isolation, and dumped a huge incomprehensible proof on the community (to oversimplify a bit). That's not totally unlike what might happen if AI generates a huge, incomprehensible proof of let's say RH. Well, what is the result? In the Mochizuki case, it was a lot of skeptici…

It’s frustrating that this comment is at the top because it, along with lots of the replies it inspired, absolutely misrepresents the actual declaration. The declaration is not making any statements about not using any AI in mathematics. The entire point is to push the use of the technology in a direction which is compatible with positive pre-existing features of the math community, and to make it better known what s…

The declaration literally opens by writing that AI companies (or really anybody) saying, “Hey, let’s see if this powerful reasoning engine can solve an open problem in mathematics” is “detrimental” to the “science” of mathematics. Full stop. So I don’t think it’s being misrepresented. If it’s a science, why isn’t progress good in itself? You can’t have it both ways.

The online comments I’ve read that side with the letter explain that the problem is AI proofs are inscrutable and useless, but the reality is using computers to brute-force things has long been part of proofs in one way or another, and AI proofs range in legibility up to 100% (like pointing out a proof exists in a long-lost paper, or writing something that is basically correct and just needs a human reviewer to fix it up). People are probably defending the declaration inaccurately, but I think that’s because the real argument or arguments are unclear.

Is it that students won’t learn math if there’s ChatGPT? That could be discussed.

To a non-mathematician (MIT physics and CS ‘06), the letter sounds like, “We have a fun job. Sometimes there are no practical applications of the work, so it’s just kind of like a sport, er I mean science. If someone solves a problem that has stumped mathematicians for decades or centuries, we worship them as a great mathematician. It’s a status thing. So we don’t like some guy with a computer coming along and solving our problems. The way things unfold with all the ideas coming from humans, over time, maybe it’s slower, but it’s nice.”

I don’t think anyone can really stop someone from using a computer capable of solving unsolved problems to solve unsolved problems, and there are always going to be mathematicians who DO think it’s fun to try to figure out what a computer is doing (if the computer isn’t already explaining it in English, which it generally can), and make progress that way, and it obviously will lead to mathematical advances in human understanding, from my point of view. So the whole thing is a non-issue that no one can do anything about anyway.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#423
I wish this were a document that clearly described how mathematicians expect AI to behave, rather than how it is misaligned. I can kind of decipher the expectation from the declaration, but it still sounds a bit like "it would be better if AI didn't meddle with mathematics", instead of "we want AI to approach problems like this and that way".

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#424
Many comments seem to be misinterpreting this, but all this seems to be suggesting is that the AI companies should not be treating mathematical milestones as benchmark targets but need to release the cumulative findings in a human interpretable and digestible way that enriches and develops the field. See Thurston quote on Tao's banner:

> We are not trying to meet some abstract production quota of definitions, theorems and proofs. The measure of our success is whether what we do enables people to understand and think more clearly and effectively about mathematics.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#426

This letter is complaining that human understanding has been crucial to advancing of mathematics, and AI companies are not bothering with it. But the promise (and horror) of AI mathematics is that, if it succeeds, human understanding becomes irrelevant. That's the goal . So this letter's message will fall on deaf ears. Keep in mind employees at AI companies are publicly stating that they believe they're risking a >10…

I agree insofar as this may fall on deaf ears of AI folks, but that the goals are differ is exactly the point of pointing out misalignment. To talk about this may be more useful for coalescing professional societies than for conversing directly with AI advancers.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#427
I don't feel nurtured and cared by mathematicians. I mean, it depends, it took me four years to find such professors. When I did, very recently, it felt like fresh air. A couple of good teachers among tenths of egotistical frustrated gatekeepers that humiliate students.

I do see a patient teacher on generative tools. What has keep me trying to learn math has not been mathematicians, but the support of people outside of the field.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#428

As a consumer of mathematics, I want to attack the author’s idea of “what that work was meant to achieve in the first place”. I do a lot of programming that uses mathematics. I designed the error recovery file format “par2”. I worked as a quantitative trader. What do I want from math? To be able to search math results, understand them, and apply them. But academic mathematicians are so inwardly focused - as these aut…

I've had a similar experience.

LLMs doing math has made math far more accessible to me than it was pre-LLM.

Not just using existing math, but developing new math. (For example, I developed an alternative to NURBS surfaces for geometric kernels using LLMs.)

It's really annoying that anyone, anywhere is talking about halting math progress with AI.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#429
post #423

I wish this were a document that clearly described how mathematicians expect AI to behave, rather than how it is misaligned. I can kind of decipher the expectation from the declaration, but it still sounds a bit like "it would be better if AI didn't meddle with mathematics", instead of "we want AI to approach problems like this and that way".

They want the AI labs to stop solving "important" math problems so that humans can do it, on the theory that when AI solves "important" math problems, it robs humans of the opportunity to gain new insights into those problems.

Total horse shit, but that's the essence of it.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#430

As a software engineer, 6 months ago. I was better than AI in essentially every way except raw typing speed. Now AI has surpassed me in fine-grained problem-solving ability. It can write more reliable code than I can, faster than I can, provided it is given the right guidance. But one thing that I'm still much better at is identifying technical opportunities and choosing the right tradeoffs. My feeling is that fronti…

Thanks for putting it in words. I feel the same about SOTA coding models. I get visibly frustrated by this and often find myself using curse words at Astra.

You're right it's very unhuman to miss obvious opportunities you mentioned. And what's why I think these models would continue sucking as long as they don't have human level general intelligence. They may get marginally better at these tasks but I don't think we can expect them to connect dots like humans before AGI.

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