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Navier-Stokes Announcement

claymath.org

161–170 of 292 posts

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#161

In my opinion, I think the Clay Mathematics Institute deserves some criticism for all the drama surrounding these problems. Mathematicians know that you can make problems arbitrarily complex, and declaring problems with large prizes attached to them can lead to a lot of competition and drama. I feel that mathematics should be free from competitions and the pursuit of glory. However, after reading the open letter sign…

> Mathematicians know that you can make problems arbitrarily complex, and declaring problems with large prizes attached to them can lead to a lot of competition and drama.

Yes, you can make problems arbitrarily complex. But the prize problems were chosen not just because the solutions appear likely to be very complex (the problem statements aren't necessarily inherently complex--there is a way to restate the Riemann hypothesis that a junior high school student could easily understand, which I'll give below).

They were chosen because they were important problems that mathematicians really wanted solved, top people had worked on them for a long time and progress stalled a long time ago, and it seemed likely that solving them would require major breakthroughs.

Those kind of problems can be discouraging. Enough people who are probably better than you have spent enough time failing to solve them that realistically most researchers are going to focus all their efforts on something they are likely to make progress on.

A nice prize can get more people to at least work on them as side projects.

Here's that restatement of the Riemann hypothesis I mentioned.

The Riemann hypothesis is that the non-trivial zeros of the function ζ(s) occur on the line 1/2 + yi.

ζ(s) is 1/1^s + 1/2^2 + 1/3^s + ... when s is a complex number whose real part is greater than 1, and defined everywhere else except s = 1 by a process called analytic continuation. The trivial zeros are at s = -2, -4, -6, ... .

For a mathematician, or a non-mathematician who has taken complex analysis and hasn't forgotten much of that, that is not too complex a definition. For anyone else the first reaction is probably "Trivial zeros? How the heck does that thing even have zeros? And if it does how the heck can it have zeros at any negative integers! It is obviously infinity at every negative integer!!!".

Here's a different hypothesis that turns out to be exactly equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis. They are either both true of both false, so resolving one of them resolves the other.

Let H(n) = 1 + 1/2 + ... + 1/n for all positive integers n. These are called the harmonic numbers.

Let S(n) = the sum of the positive integer factors of n for all positive integers n. For example S(4) = 1 + 2 + 4, S(6) = 1 + 2 + 3 + 6, and S(17) = 1 + 17.

Hypothesis: S(n) The proof that this is equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis is here [1].

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0008177

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#162
post #8

It's worth mentioning that OpenAI will not be eligible for the Millennium Prize for quite a while. Per the rules listed https://www.claymath.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/millenni... , Clay Mathematics Institute have some requirements to make this process deliberately slow. 1) The solution must be published in a qualifying outlet, i.e. a peer-reviewed math journal. Publishing on your own website (which is what OpenA…

OpenAI has stated that they will not claim the prize. https://openai.com/index/navier-stokes-solution/ While the scandal is still unraveling, it seems that OpenAI did a rush job to steal other mathematicians' thunder and finish the proof first. OpenAI released a statement that their work does not relate to the work of the other team, but it clearly does. They use the same niche smooth-forcing mechanism. Altman and Bu…

> Altman and Bubeck claim that because the proof used different scaling parameters and analytical steps, it's not related,

Is Altman even mathematican these days?

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#163
post #93
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it actually makes a difference. OpenAI doesn't care about the million dollars in any case. And the judgement that they did it is independent of whether the Clay people agree: you can make up your own mind and so can everyone else. Though it would be funny if no one ever bothers publishing the result in an appropriate journal, and thus the prize technically can never be claimed.

Even funnier that it wouldn't even be the first time that happens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

Not including salaries, OpenAI spend $20MM to make $1MM. Very on-brand for a start-up.

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#164
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In recent years there has been an increasing sense of anticipation as breakthroughs in the surrounding field (some recognised by the Clay Research Award) have raised hopes that the Navier-Stokes problem might soon be resolved. The increasing ability of new technologies to accelerate mathematical research has heightened this sense of anticipation." Keyword: New Technologies

That is so vague you might as well call Windows NT new technologies

It’s written from a perspective of decades, not years

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lean roof search tactics can generate vacuous proofs. They are not errors or a degenerate cases. They are completely valid, sound proof terms. Building a system that reliably detects vacuous proofs in all cases is fundamentally undecidable. It's equal to the halting problem.

Can you elaborate on what constitutes a vacuous proof?

If you have a software engineering background, it's like how semantic versioning is bollocks.

Semantic versioning describes the following idealized setup:

- you have an interface you expose (a contract, and thus a contract signature)

- you do not change the contract signature -> patch version bump

- you do change it but in a non-breaking way (e.g. additively) -> minor version bump

- you do change it but in a breaking way (e.g. mutatively or destructively) -> major version bump

One would expect then that since interface signatures are statically derivable, semantic version tags can be auto-assigned. And indeed, in lots of shops that's exactly what happens (in my opinion, correctly).

The problem with this is that it comes with a lot more smoke than fire. The interface having no changes or non-breaking changes doesn't mean the actual code behind those interfaces is not going to cause a breakage. It literally is just about the interface itself.

And so unless you encode absolutely everything about the semantics your implementation actually observes into the interface, which is what the semver specification asks you to do so as their sleight of hand, this means the interface will be a leaky abstraction. Which means that external software interfacing with yours may observe behavior that is beyond the purview of semantic versioning. Which means that they do. Which means that they absolutely can and will break, and your package managers' fancy version constraint syntax exists to make such fun events happen.

The way this is usually handled then is:

- you live with the pain: acknowledge the limitations of semver, accept you've been duped, and just give in

- you have human release managers assign versions manually, based on whole program and whole system semantics (with the human overhead and error that entails), falsely claiming that what you're doing is still semver

- you switch to a less deceptive versioning scheme, like calendar versioning; as a bonus, you now no longer have to pretend that your entire application somehow only has a single unified interface

This mirrors the Lean statement and Lean proof situation. The statement is like an interface, and the proof is like the implementation behind that interface. The way the proof is derived may expose semantic gaps in the statement itself, and (ab)use them to obtain the logical consistency certificate. Hence, a vacuous proof, and hence why this is not statically assertable to be not the case. It is part of the challenge in asserting that the statement was correctly formalized in the first place: you need to manually identify whether the way the consistency was achieved is actually meaningful, or just a formalization gap.

Which really makes me wonder about the actual value proposition of Lean then, but alas...

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#166
Are there still any reasonable arguments to be mad at OpenAI at this point? Looking at how everything unfolded, this seems to have hit them way harder then they deserved.

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#167
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even funnier that it wouldn't even be the first time that happens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

Not including salaries, OpenAI spend $20MM to make $1MM. Very on-brand for a start-up.

I don’t think solving a millennium prize problem can be reduced to some DoorDash economics of “spent Y to make X.” What if it took someone their entire professional career to solve one of these problems, would it not be worth it by the same logic?

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#168

Proving things without comprehending them is a threat to intellectual work.

Why is it a threat and not an opportunity? Imagine if in ancient times there was their Oracle that could produce mathematical proofs of any question you asked it, would you burn it or try to understand how it works and use it to ask questions you are stuck on?

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I present to you my new theorem as follows: If 1 == 3 then 3 == 3 ---- This statement is 100% logically coherent internally. But it also doesn't matter because we know that 1 does not equal 3 so this proof is completely pointless. I could also say 3 == 5 and it would still be logically sound but completely useless information.

For a laymen, I don't follow this. Are you proving for some arbitrary definition of == that isn't what we commonly consider the definition? How is it logically coherent? You mean only in the sense that you say it is and you haven't provided any rules to disprove it?

if A then B

Can only be false if there is an instance where A is true, and B is false. In all other cases it's true, even when A is always false.

That's the key.

Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement

#170

Proving things without comprehending them is a threat to intellectual work.

Why is it a threat and not an opportunity? Imagine if in ancient times there was their Oracle that could produce mathematical proofs of any question you asked it, would you burn it or try to understand how it works and use it to ask questions you are stuck on?

I would burn it because it's too much power for any one person to handle. Or, I would take it for myself by force and use it to dominate everyone else.
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