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A misalignment of AI in mathematics

mathandai.org

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Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#901

Post by Kiro »

octoberfranklin wrote: post #666
pks016 wrote: post #665

I never expected this many people (on this thread) arguing semantics and what not. I know that not everyone has morality and ethics, but I didn't realize it was this bad. I'm afraid of the ripple effect of the agenda pushed by AI companies will have. In future and even now, they say AI has significantly progressed math and scientific research in general. There is truth to this, but the narrative has done more damage…

This story's comments are heavily astroturfed. Just compare with the comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49639408

People keep yelling about HN being astroturfed and yet I haven't seen a single proof of it.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#902

Post by well_ackshually »

charcircuit wrote: post #888
well_ackshually wrote: post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. It's 32 millions lines of bullshit, and the only thing it brought is "it's not true in some extreme conditions lol". The effort needed to figure out why that is, what conditions lead to it, the new mathematics that would need to be developed to solve their problem is once again being hoisted on actual humans, who now need to waste their time sifting through their slop.

You don't have to read 32 million lines. You can just look at what got proved. The proof checker lets you trust those millions of lines you did not read.

No, you don't understand: that proof is useless. When you solve mathematical problems, you open up new ones in the process of doing so. You create new research. You create new theories, new notations, new thought.

This is just ticking a checkbox. And even worse and more time wasting even: you have ZERO proof that there's no latent Lean bug. Especially in a proof this large.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#903

Post by JoshTriplett »

user43928 wrote: post #898
JoshTriplett wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing people leaves no room for people.

Out of 3.5 billion employed people globally, only 10% are professionals. Do you really think making labor obsolete and giving humans back their time is such a bad thing?

When cars made horses obsolete, it didn't go so well for horses.

In the short term, AI is disempowering the vast majority of people in favor of a very small subset. In the also way too short term, AI is disempowering all people.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#904

Post by simianparrot »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #807
nmeagent wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Perhaps humanity would be better off if we instituted and enforced the notion of "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." It's worth thinking about; just because we can build AI systems doesn't mean we should.

The problem with technology is that the people who have it conquer and kill all the people who don't, essentially ensuring a destructive race to the bottom. You would need a mutual international alliance of nations who not only renounce the technology but also agree to invade anyone who attempts to develop it. Our closest precedent is nuclear weapons, but rather than renouncing them, the US's position is that "only w…

Google which countries have nuclear weapons. Hint: It’s not just the US, it’s also its allies and frenemies who’ve not been invaded. It’s only nutball countries like Iran that get invaded when on the cusp of acquiring it and for good reason.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#905

Post by socketcluster »

As a software engineer, 6 months ago. I was better than AI in essentially every way except raw typing speed.

Now AI has surpassed me in fine-grained problem-solving ability. It can write more reliable code than I can, faster than I can, provided it is given the right guidance.

But one thing that I'm still much better at is identifying technical opportunities and choosing the right tradeoffs.

My feeling is that frontier models are incredibly smart in some ways, but incredibly dumb in other ways

When I chat with Claude using deep technical language about distributed systems issues, the arguments it presents are mind-blowingly good. I worked with many skilled engineers on complex projects but the kinds of arguments Claude makes are on another level. It feels like it can read my mind because it already identified all of the relevant aspects to the current topic and it's incredibly persuasive. I would say it's even better at deep, nuanced technical discussions than I am.

When I ask it to implement a feature using technical language, it does a really good job and the solution usually works out of the box. No bugs at all 95% of the time even after adding 1000 lines!

But the problem it still has is that when it implements solutions, it misses so many low-hanging fruits/opportunities. Especially in terms of performance, maintainability, scalability and UX. It's like it sees and recalls all the relevant parts perfectly but yet somehow misses opportunities which seem extremely obvious to me.

It feels like AI has 0 creativity. It only sees the opportunity once I mention it... And once it sees the opportunity, it demonstrates deep understanding of the technical implications. I think what's surprising is that it understands the suggested solution so well, with such nuance, that I can't understand how it didn't see the opportunity and why it never seems to see it until I mention it.

This is very unhuman-like. There is no way that a human being with that degree of understanding of a topic would be presented with such highly relevant context and not make the connection.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#906

Post by jezze »

I read what the text says but I still do not understand what the point is they are trying to make.

What is it that AI does exactly that they consider to be bad for mathmaticians?

I thought that having AI solve prevously unsolved problems would be a good thing. Doesn't that knowledge give them new ideas and tools for them to solve the next big problem?

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#907

Post by Anonyneko »

user43928 wrote: post #898
JoshTriplett wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing people leaves no room for people.

Out of 3.5 billion employed people globally, only 10% are professionals. Do you really think making labor obsolete and giving humans back their time is such a bad thing?

I think the concern is that humans who are given back their time won't have any means to make use of that time, or even possibly means to survive. The resources will be concentrated in the hands of the few more than ever.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#908

Post by user43928 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #903
user43928 wrote: post #898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of 3.5 billion employed people globally, only 10% are professionals. Do you really think making labor obsolete and giving humans back their time is such a bad thing?

When cars made horses obsolete, it didn't go so well for horses. In the short term, AI is disempowering the vast majority of people in favor of a very small subset. In the also way too short term, AI is disempowering all people.

I have a more optimistic outlook on the abilities of our governments as well as the motivations of rich people.

I believe we will distribute the fruits of AI's labor at the very least to the extend where everyone can live comfortably.

No one has an interest in putting large parts of society on the streets in some sort of dystopia.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#909

Post by JoshTriplett »

user43928 wrote: post #908
JoshTriplett wrote: post #903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When cars made horses obsolete, it didn't go so well for horses. In the short term, AI is disempowering the vast majority of people in favor of a very small subset. In the also way too short term, AI is disempowering all people.

I have a more optimistic outlook on the abilities of our governments as well as the motivations of rich people. I believe we will distribute the fruits of AI's labor at the very least to the extend where everyone can live comfortably. No one has an interest in putting large parts of society on the streets in some sort of dystopia.

You are assuming that people remain in control.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#910

Post by pred_ »

qlte wrote: post #775
GPerson wrote: post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s frustrating that this comment is at the top because it, along with lots of the replies it inspired, absolutely misrepresents the actual declaration. The declaration is not making any statements about not using any AI in mathematics. The entire point is to push the use of the technology in a direction which is compatible with positive pre-existing features of the math community, and to make it better known what s…

It includes Terrance Tao who has made the front page several dozen times at this point for his usage of AI such as to help the community write proofs for Erdos problems. But to many commentors he's a now gatekeeping AI-hating Luddite clinging to a dying profession out of bitterness and envy because his position is more nuanced than "throw AI at everything and turn off your brain".

It's the same on Reddit, and if you look up a few comment histories, you'll find that it's mostly /r/singularity users and /r/accelerate posters that are spamming. So I assume that people are just deliberately misreading the letter and trolling here as well, and I wouldn't read too much into it, but on the other hand, if you never had to think about what scientific misconduct looks like, it's harder to see why the behavior of the AI companies is problematic.
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