Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s easy to verify the lean statement, you don’t need to read the proof. That is part of the breakthrough
> we use “malicious” to describe code that goes out of its way to trick or mislead the user, exploit bugs or compromise the system. This includes un-reviewed AI-generated proofs and programs. It is interesting that AI-generated proofs are described as malicious by Lean docs unless reviewed.
Navier-Stokes Announcement
81–90 of 292 posts
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s easy to verify the lean statement, you don’t need to read the proof. That is part of the breakthrough
> we use “malicious” to describe code that goes out of its way to trick or mislead the user, exploit bugs or compromise the system. This includes un-reviewed AI-generated proofs and programs. It is interesting that AI-generated proofs are described as malicious by Lean docs unless reviewed.
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#83In my opinion, I think the Clay Mathematics Institute deserves some criticism for all the drama surrounding these problems. Mathematicians know that you can make problems arbitrarily complex, and declaring problems with large prizes attached to them can lead to a lot of competition and drama. I feel that mathematics should be free from competitions and the pursuit of glory. However, after reading the open letter sign…
I agree. Technological advances can lead to a better world for sure, but I think many people underestimate the human need to create and to find meaning in their work. If AI can do superhuman math that allows better medicines, cleaner energy etc that is great. But if AI replaces humans in all the creative and intellectual fields that is not only a loss of jobs but also a loss of deeply meaningful activities. This is w…
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s a big if. In the maths community, there has been a feeling that Navier-Stokes was close to being solved for a while now. I don’t know of anyone credible who feels that way about the Riemann hypothesis. Here’s what Terrence Tao had to say about it https://youtu.be/vuT-2_e4NHg Edit to add: The fun part about the RH since people mentioned lean in a sibling thread is that in lean’s mathlib4 there is verified state…
It's really not that big. Yeah Navier-Stokes was easier than Riemann but that's not really the issue. AI has and will improve at a much greater rate than human mathematicians. So it's really a question of if AI gets good enough to tackle it before any human does. It doesn't look like humans will be solving it anytime soon but where will AI be in 2 years ? Hell, it looks like at least one other result will be announce…
I don’t know the details of RH, it might very well be solved soon, but it could also be impossible or just so difficult that even orders of magnitude more intelligent AI can’t solve it even.
If it is impossible to prove, it might be possible to prove that it is impossible to prove, or that itself might be difficult or impossible…
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also, and sorry if it's been discussed to death (pointers welcome), but, what is the probability that the proof holds in lean becaude of... A bug in lean ?
AI has autonomously found (many) proofs of False in Lean and Rocq, so it's not merely a theoretical concern. A misaligned AI agent tasked with proving the near-impossible just might wind up smuggling in a bug deep in a lemma somewhere (anyone remember the days back when AI routinely made tests pass by "fixing" the tests?). That said, I doubt OpenAI would be so foolish as to not do a cursory vetting of the proof for m…
Significant evidence exists that they have in the past been at least, if not more, foolish as to not perform even minimal not-approaching the boundary of cursory vetting of several significant and well known failure modes with far greater risk of reputational damage than getting an esoteric math solution falsely claimed as successful.
So that doubt appears baseless in light of known operating conditions at OpenAI, and the estimate of the actual odds is probably an order of magnitude away from reality.
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#86It's worth mentioning that OpenAI will not be eligible for the Millennium Prize for quite a while. Per the rules listed https://www.claymath.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/millenni... , Clay Mathematics Institute have some requirements to make this process deliberately slow. 1) The solution must be published in a qualifying outlet, i.e. a peer-reviewed math journal. Publishing on your own website (which is what OpenA…
While the scandal is still unraveling, it seems that OpenAI did a rush job to steal other mathematicians' thunder and finish the proof first.
OpenAI released a statement that their work does not relate to the work of the other team, but it clearly does. They use the same niche smooth-forcing mechanism. Altman and Bubeck claim that because the proof used different scaling parameters and analytical steps, it's not related, but it seems that nobody else agrees. Oh, and OpenAI's Bubeck tried to threaten Buckmaster (mathematician working on the proof).
This brings nothing but shame for OpenAI.
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Has and will. Are you going to back that assertion up at all, or just repeat it like that other viral thought-terminating cliche: ‘this is the worst the models will ever be’?
Yes. This is the worst the models will ever be. Perhaps you should start paying attention to that now.
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Lean proof is published, you can download it. The clock definitely is ticking. Edit: Oh, didn't see the "qualifying outlet" condition. But Poincare was ever just put on arXiv, so arXiv must count as well.
Publish in academic language means accepted peer-reviewed paper.
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also, and sorry if it's been discussed to death (pointers welcome), but, what is the probability that the proof holds in lean becaude of... A bug in lean ?
Someone made a 'proof' of the Collatz conjecture that way in Lean. However if the prove relies on a bug like that, you'll be able to 'simplify' the proof a lot and you'll be able to proof contradictions.
I don't think this is true in general.
It's an issue I've already run into in personal work. I want to do a proof that involves some cases. It happens to the best of us.
In lean, the structure of a situation like this is that your single branch with a goal divides into multiple branches, all sharing the same original goal but including one additional premise that defines the branch.
Sometimes I know that for whatever reason one case I have to deal with is impossible. The most correct way to show that is to prove False and then apply False.elim. This is the equivalent, in a human proof, of saying "I don't have to address this situation, because it can never arise".
But it can be true that the premise defining the impossible case makes it very easy to "prove" the goal directly. And that's allowed too. The proof will still be just as valid if you map a logical path from a premise that can never be true to an inevitable consequence of that premise. But it's less informative and it lowers the quality of the proof. You may do it anyway because it's easier. This is the equivalent of saying "I don't know whether this situation can ever come up or not, but if it does I do know how to address it".
It would be nice to do the explicit proof by contradiction whenever possible. But in the general case it may be very far from obvious that a contradiction is possible.
I read your comment as claiming that if you can prove "false premise => goal", you can also prove "false premise => explicit contradiction", and I don't think this makes sense as a practical test. It's true in some sense, but discovering the proof of an explicit contradiction may be many orders of magnitude harder than discovering the proof of the goal. And in particular, I don't think it is necessarily the case that you will be able to prove a contradiction by simplifying the proof. You may need to add significant complexity.
Re: Navier-Stokes Announcement
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the Lean initial-problem-setup/statements/assumptions/etc. aren't correct then the proof is meaningless. Lean does not know what it is that it is proving i.e. it does not have any semantic understanding but only executes formal logic. Humans need to verify everything.
Also, and sorry if it's been discussed to death (pointers welcome), but, what is the probability that the proof holds in lean becaude of... A bug in lean ?
This is the exact same kind of behavour already documented in the publicly available portion of the huggingface breach. It would appear that the probability is at least nonzero for one or more situations with the same result: appearance of a valid proof, without comprehensibility of that proof or inspect-ability of the proofs validity.