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Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

bbc.com

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Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#671

Post by ericmay »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #647
ericmay wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and other countries will follow You sound gleeful about the idea of nuclear proliferation. It's unfortunate that so many have stopped caring about the institutions and liberal world order we created. Oh well. If/once Iran gets one we'll give one to Saudi Arabia at least and make sure Israel's program is well supported. Then we can make sure Germany has them and Poland too if they want them. Korea and Japan will als…

I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Re: nuclear weapons. If the US gives up the role of protecting other friendly nations and NATO isn't viewed as reliable…

> I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart.

Part of that preservation means a safe and stable Middle East and more countries not acquiring nuclear weapons.

You simply cannot “negotiate” with Iran here. It’s no different than when Europeans (rightfully in my view) say there’s no negotiating with Putin and then go and complain about the US sending delegates to Russia trying to figure something out no matter how half-brained the Trump administration might be.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#672

Post by ericmay »

etchalon wrote: post #666
ericmay wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At no point have I said Iran is a good country doing good things. I didn't say you did. I'm just focused on their wrongdoings and I'm not interested in some accident that the US was involved in. We accidentally blew something up? Dang that sucks. Let's talk about how awful Iran is instead and focus on that because that's what matters. > I have no control of, or say, in how Iran operates. What does that matter? You…

We didn't accidentally blow something up. Our military murdered 170 children due to incompetence. I am aware of Iran's activities. Everyone is. The regime is murderous, and hostile to our allies in the region. And absolutely nothing we are doing, right now, has changed or will change that.

> We didn't accidentally blow something up. Our military murdered 170 children due to incompetence.

You’re calling it incompetence because you have an axe to grind. The US military simply does not intentionally murder children. Everybody knows that including Iran! That’s why these guys put their military equipment next to civilian infrastructure. Why is that I’m telling you this, the military tells you this, European militaries would tell you this, Iran tells you this, and yet you alone are insistent that it is incompetence and not an accident?

> I am aware of Iran's activities. Everyone is. The regime is murderous, and hostile to our allies in the region.

Good let’s focus the conversation there since that’s what is important.

> And absolutely nothing we are doing, right now, has changed or will change that.

False

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#673

Post by ericmay »

mikem170 wrote: post #663
ericmay wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to dig up some sources later, if I don't then consider the point conceded I guess as a way of holding me to it. The other problem of course if the fundamental "need" to have a JCPOA in the first place. Iran can just stop trying to build nuclear weapons and then we don't need these kinds of agreements. They also enriched uranium: "Iran has 440.9 kilograms (972 pounds) of uranium that is enriched up to 60% pu…

The IAEA also said: "In its May 2025 report, the IAEA noted Iran’s enrichment to 60% purity—beyond JCPOA limits but not prohibited under the NPT itself" [0] Apparently the Iranians started enriching to that 60% level, and self reporting, in 2021, as leverage in the unsuccessful negotions to bring the JCPOA back into effect to get sanctions dropped. International politics is what it is - power and self interest. There…

> Throw in the crusades and ongoing holy wars, colonialism, oil, authoritarian regimes, propaganda, alliances, greed, etc - it's no wonder this is still a problem. One of many problems in that part of the world.

Are you serious lol. Ok let’s go back to the Persians invading the Greeks!

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#674

Post by ericmay »

theplumber wrote: post #665
ericmay wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know. It was a rhetorical question. I want the person I was replying to, to admit to these non-defensive activities, or admit to their not following the events closely.

I think the rhetorical answer is why should we care if Iran is doing bad stuff around? Is that enough to start a war with Iran? We don’t care if Trump is doing a deal with criminals to steal oil from Venezuela either so why should the world be so eager to help him steal oil from Iran as well?(and perhaps do a deal with the meanest of them all)

Why should we care that Israel is doing bad stuff around? Or Russia?

> We don’t care if Trump is doing a deal with criminals to steal oil from Venezuela either so why should the world be so eager to help him steal oil from Iran as well?(and perhaps do a deal with the meanest of them all)

Not stealing oil. Let’s set that aside.

The reason nobody cares is because Maduro was a criminal and was responsible for economic devastation in Venezuela resulting in 1/3rd of the country fleeing!

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#675

Post by elicash »

strbean wrote: post #496
elicash wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no AUMF, and I believe Congress already repealed previous ones? I thought the remaining issues were a dispute related to the timing requirements in the War Powers Resolution, plus unsettled Constitutional law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milit... The 2001 AUMF hasn't been repealed. It was used as recently as 2025 to justify attacks on Venezuelan ships.

It was 1991 and 2002 AUMFs that were repealed in December 2025. I appreciate the correction.

(That said, the 2001 AUMF hasn't been invoked against Iran.)

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#676

Post by ericmay »

ndiddy wrote: post #642
ericmay wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they won't do it because they're rational actors who understand mutually assured destruction It's both. The Iranians are rational within their own cultural understanding of what rational actions are. It's not rational, for example, for them to build nuclear weapons, deprive their people of economic prosperity, kill thousands of protestors, fund militant groups spreading terrorism and murder throughout the region, y…

> It's not rational, for example, for them to build nuclear weapons, deprive their people of economic prosperity, kill thousands of protestors, fund militant groups spreading terrorism and murder throughout the region, yet they do it anyway. Iran's behavior (not its rhetoric) is largely pragmatic in the sense of pursuing national and regime security. For example, its strategy of funding military groups allows it to p…

I don’t disagree with your analysis besides a little too much “US/Israel attack”, but my point wasn’t that their regime did things consistent with their regime goals.

My point (and I apologize if it wasn’t clear enough) was that westerners approach Iran from our own concept of rational behavior: democracy, human rights, free trade (over simplifying but bear with me).

If Iran were acting rational according to our principles we wouldn’t be here. But they’re not. Trying to negotiate with them based on “rationality” doesn’t make sense because the views on rational behavior are generally incompatible. It’s the same to a large extent with Putin. Why give up huge economic advantages and prosperity and all of those things and become a truly European company just to invade Ukraine? The behavior according to our views isn’t rational but to Putin (and those who support) it’s quite rational.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#677

Post by defrost »

ericmay wrote: post #671
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Re: nuclear weapons. If the US gives up the role of protecting other friendly nations and NATO isn't viewed as reliable…

> I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Part of that preservation means a safe and stable Middle East and more countries not acquiring nuclear weapons. You s…

> You simply cannot “negotiate” with Iran here.

Likely not any more, not since Trump tore up US participation in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA).

One bad faith act destroyed concerted effort by multiple countries that would have seen greater Iranian integration into the world and the falling off of internal extreme influence.

Negotiation demonstrably worked, in the past, trust was destroyed .. who did that?

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#678

Post by LtWorf »

ericmay wrote: post #674
theplumber wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rhetorical answer is why should we care if Iran is doing bad stuff around? Is that enough to start a war with Iran? We don’t care if Trump is doing a deal with criminals to steal oil from Venezuela either so why should the world be so eager to help him steal oil from Iran as well?(and perhaps do a deal with the meanest of them all)

Why should we care that Israel is doing bad stuff around? Or Russia? > We don’t care if Trump is doing a deal with criminals to steal oil from Venezuela either so why should the world be so eager to help him steal oil from Iran as well?(and perhaps do a deal with the meanest of them all) Not stealing oil. Let’s set that aside. The reason nobody cares is because Maduro was a criminal and was responsible for economic d…

> The reason nobody cares is because Maduro was a criminal and was responsible for economic devastation in Venezuela resulting in 1/3rd of the country fleeing!

And now it's even worse but USA gets free oil so it's all fine!

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