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Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

science.org

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Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#51

Post by [deleted] »

BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #47
theturtletalks wrote: post #10

I read many years ago that psychedelics are what lead to the formation of consciousness. And it’s supported by the fact that psychedelics are also a network like the brain is. And when taking them, your brain experiences plasticity and that’s what allows profound changes. A big part of our consciousness is the default mode network (which is a default of how we operate day to day, things we think about, etc). Psychede…

> I read many years ago that psychedelics are what lead to the formation of consciousness I have never taken psychedelics but I believe myself to be conscious.

[deleted]

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#52

Post by archonis »

LoganDark wrote: post #24
talon8635 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poison is a function of dosage. Water is a poison in a high enough dose. What’s you’re arguments it’s not a drug?

Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.)

That's purely because it's usage is accepted nearly as a default, and drug in common usage is most often a pejorative term if it doesn't refer to a medicinal context.

Most people who use drug as a pejorative term also wouldn't use it to describe caffeine.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#53

Post by asphodele »

LoganDark wrote: post #9
baxtr wrote: post #3

Didn’t mind-altering drugs like alcohol play a key role in the rise of any civilization?

Alcohol is a poison, not a drug, but I also think so. I honestly wish mind-altering drugs were more accessible sometimes, mostly because of safety. Millions are killed by adulterants in their street drugs.

if alcohol can damage your short term memory,

Imagine what effect alcohol has

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#54

Post by archonis »

fugalfervor wrote: post #30
theturtletalks wrote: post #10

I read many years ago that psychedelics are what lead to the formation of consciousness. And it’s supported by the fact that psychedelics are also a network like the brain is. And when taking them, your brain experiences plasticity and that’s what allows profound changes. A big part of our consciousness is the default mode network (which is a default of how we operate day to day, things we think about, etc). Psychede…

There is no evidence of that. What you say is not supporting, but rather "conveniently makes sense". I don't dispute the utility of psychedelics. But I have observed (and this is anecdotal) that the fanatic devotees of the drugs tend to engage in magical thinking around the power/history/whatever of psychedelic substances, no matter their intelligence or accomplishment, or rigorous critical thinking in other areas.

Reconciling the profound interiority of the experience with a mere external catalyst can be quite challenging.

Consider the question yourself next time you are in the throes of an exoerience and see how hard it is to maintain objectivity...

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#55

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

LoganDark wrote: post #24
talon8635 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poison is a function of dosage. Water is a poison in a high enough dose. What’s you’re arguments it’s not a drug?

Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.)

> Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs

That's primarily because it's most commonly diluted 90%. Spirits (or everclear) have much lower intake required.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#56

Post by sophacles »

clickety_clack wrote: post #2

Given that many of our current-day subterranean environments are also covered in art and strewn with drug paraphernalia, can we really say that it played a key role in the rise of the civilization?

Yeah, it's really gross that coffee cups are left all over the place. But yeah, rise in caffeine consumption in place of ethanol is thought to have enabled and fueled the enlightenment, and been a major factor in the industrial revolution.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#57

Post by clickety_clack »

sophacles wrote: post #56
clickety_clack wrote: post #2

Given that many of our current-day subterranean environments are also covered in art and strewn with drug paraphernalia, can we really say that it played a key role in the rise of the civilization?

Yeah, it's really gross that coffee cups are left all over the place. But yeah, rise in caffeine consumption in place of ethanol is thought to have enabled and fueled the enlightenment, and been a major factor in the industrial revolution.

I meant the graffiti and needles in tunnels and under bridges etc.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#58

Post by mannanj »

nickff wrote: post #18
LoganDark wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol is a poison, not a drug, but I also think so. I honestly wish mind-altering drugs were more accessible sometimes, mostly because of safety. Millions are killed by adulterants in their street drugs.

As the saying goes: “the dose makes the poison”. Many (perhaps most) drugs cause harm at the wrong dosage.

So for mold, low enough doses aren't poison? Can't you just say this about anything. If you have poison in a low enough dose it's not poison. So it means jsut about nothing to say alcohol isn't poisonous because you can have a small dose of it.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#59

Post by aeonik »

LoganDark wrote: post #24
talon8635 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poison is a function of dosage. Water is a poison in a high enough dose. What’s you’re arguments it’s not a drug?

Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.)

But the "Active dose" to "lethal dose" ratio, aka "therapeutic index" of alcohol is pretty bad.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#60

Post by sophacles »

clickety_clack wrote: post #57
sophacles wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's really gross that coffee cups are left all over the place. But yeah, rise in caffeine consumption in place of ethanol is thought to have enabled and fueled the enlightenment, and been a major factor in the industrial revolution.

I meant the graffiti and needles in tunnels and under bridges etc.

I know what you meant. But the words you used apply to my reply too. It's a reminder that any attempt at an objective definition of "drugs" includes alcohol and caffeine, and that there is a huge cultural component to "good drugs" and "bad drugs". In fact, coffee was considered one of the bad drugs by many cultures it when first introduced to them - including European culture.
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