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Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

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Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#531

Post by ericmay »

drTobiasFunke wrote: post #475
ericmay wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India and Pakistan both rushed their programs back in the 40s/50s ( or maybe later I can't recall off the top of my head). Libya and South Africa were negotiated away. That leaves Israel probably from the, what, 70s or 80s? And North Korea was supported by Russia and China. I'm not sure you could consider any of those countries to be "pursuing nuclear weapons" today. Plus by that logic you'd have to throw in the US,…

India and Pakistan were late 90s. Japan and South Korea literally have 100s of American military bases on their territory. You really think they are sovereign nations who can pursue an independent nuclear program?

> You really think they are sovereign nations who can pursue an independent nuclear program?

Yes? Are you really sitting here telling South Korea, Japan, Germany, and more that they’re not sovereign nations because they choose to have American military bases on their home soil?

> India and Pakistan were late 90s.

Source please

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#532

Post by spwa4 »

riffraff wrote: post #305
spwa4 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so it's clear that you're trying to cause confusion: these are light water reactors that cannot in any way shape or form be used to make bombs. Slightly harder to design and build. Much cheaper to run. Excellent for power. Bad for bombs. And, yes, just to get ahead of your next question: the US (and Europe and Russia and China) have offered to help Iran create these. Explaining it to them. Send people and engine…

I 100% agree Iran wants nukes, but I don't think it's a given they want to "destroy the region". It is more likely they want to get the same level of safety countries with nukes get, e.g. North Korea's leadership is at no risen of getting a "democratizing" invasion. Then again, who knows what the next leader will do.

Iran's current government started killing people to maintain power HOURS after they got to power. They have continued killing, constantly, people in their power, for about 55 years now. Including in january, and they're still killing more of their people for the crime of protesting one by one. They torture them first, especially if they're female.

The IRGC has constantly used every weapon they have, and by that I mean firing it, not as a means of defense, but as a means of attack. That too, is something they're still doing, before and after the US-Iran escalation.

Allowing this particular bunch of assholes get a nuclear weapon is a level of stupidity that is barely describable. If they want such a weapon for safety, that'll be the first time in their history.

And yes, I get it, a lot of people really hate Israel. There is even some justification for that. But do you believe for even one second this government will stop after bombing Israel?

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#533

Post by empath75 »

dismalaf wrote: post #138

Attacking Iran and then backing down has just shown all the West's enemies that the US has no resolve.

> the US has no resolve.

This would be the wrong conclusion to take from it. Trump is incredibly unpopular domestically and the war is dumb and pointless and was sprung on the US population by surprise and planned and executed with complete and utter incompetence, and the negative economic consequences are way out of proportion to any conceivable benefit we will get out of it. It's not a lack of resolve, it's a rational reaction to incompetent leadership.

"The West's enemies" have to be careful not to give the US an excuse to commit to a real war, rather than fight it with basically pocket change the way we are now while we look for a way out.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#534

Post by ericmay »

etchalon wrote: post #469
ericmay wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've just killed children. They killed more than 30,000 of their own people including children and support terrorist regimes in multiple countries that also kill children. > There's zero evidence its less possible On the other hand we bombed the nuclear facilities so what increase in nuclear weapons capability do they have that you are thinking about here? If there's something that has changed I'd be curious to re…

So your argument is its cool that we killed children because they've also killed children? Hell of a take. The evidence we bombed their nuclear facilities is essentially this administration telling us we bombed their nuclear facilities. This administration does not have a track record of providing the public with honest assessments of their success. If we've successfully stopped them from developing a nuclear weapon,…

> So your argument is its cool that we killed children because they've also killed children? Hell of a take.

No my take is we do it by accident and they do it on purpose and at a much larger scale and instead of pearl clutching about the US doing it on accident you should be pearl clutching about Iran doing it. I didn’t bring it up, but anytime someone brings up this whole “US killed kids” I’m happy to remind everyone that Iran is far worse.

> The evidence we bombed their nuclear facilities is essentially this administration telling us we bombed their nuclear facilities.

So? Do you not believe anything anyone says unless you see it for yourself?

> If we've successfully stopped them from developing a nuclear weapon, which was stated as the point of our preemptive aggression, I'd need a very good reason why we continue to spend billions attacking them.

Stopping the development of a nuclear weapon is an important goal but not the only one. We keep defending ourselves because they keep doing things like launching rockets at Kuwait, or shooting at American ships, or supporting those committing genocide or murder in Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, and Yemen.

There is a very simple solution. Iran stops funding these groups, stops murdering their own people, stop launching rockets, and stops trying to build nuclear weapons. Once they do that and behave responsibility like just about every other country on the planet there aren’t any problems.

Why is it that they can’t just stop doing these things?

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#535

Post by mmooss »

ericmay wrote: post #340
mmooss wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't announce their secret nuclear weapons programs before they are complete (though they are sometimes discovered), but some countries have violated international law and developed them, precisely to protect their sovereignty: - North Korea - Israel - India - Pakistan All retain their sovereignty, though I can't prove any causal effect and certainly nuclear weapons isn't the only cause. Others have pursued the…

India and Pakistan both rushed their programs back in the 40s/50s ( or maybe later I can't recall off the top of my head). Libya and South Africa were negotiated away. That leaves Israel probably from the, what, 70s or 80s? And North Korea was supported by Russia and China. I'm not sure you could consider any of those countries to be "pursuing nuclear weapons" today. Plus by that logic you'd have to throw in the US,…

> India and Pakistan both rushed their programs back in the 40s/50s

India worked on them on and off for decades and first tested one in 1998, and IIRC Pakistan matched them soon after.

North Korea was in the 2000s.

> So when you sort of set aside countries from prior to, idk, 1980s ish you don't really have anyone at least publicly (to your point) pursuing nuclear weapons.

I'm not going through the comment correcting all of it.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#536

Post by sixothree »

ElProlactin wrote: post #512
autoexec wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US President routinely announces policy decisions on social media… Yes, our current President also does stupid things, and our military forces shouldn't be using his incoherent ramblings on Twitter to make snap judgements on the battlefield without checking with their chain of command either.

> ...and our military forces shouldn't be using his incoherent ramblings on Twitter to make snap judgements on the battlefield without checking with their chain of command either. You mean the chain of command that has been purged of experienced professionals?

We really are in a bad spot aren't we. In so many ways, strategically, reputationally, introspectively. It's hard to imagine coming back from this.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#537

Post by ericmay »

mikem170 wrote: post #457
ericmay wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran probably wasn't following the JCPOA, denied inspectors access to certain sites, and you'd also have to say you 100% trust American intelligence to verify that Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon in secret and if you want to do that I've got a war to sell you in Iraq. Separately that doesn't resolve the other issues, funding militant groups, &c.

> Iran probably wasn't following the JCPOA Source?

They deny access to “military sites” where nuclear research is done. I mean it’s not like they’re stupid or something.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#538

Post by ElProlactin »

sixothree wrote: post #536
ElProlactin wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...and our military forces shouldn't be using his incoherent ramblings on Twitter to make snap judgements on the battlefield without checking with their chain of command either. You mean the chain of command that has been purged of experienced professionals?

We really are in a bad spot aren't we. In so many ways, strategically, reputationally, introspectively. It's hard to imagine coming back from this.

> It's hard to imagine coming back from this.

You don't even need to try because it's not happening.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#539

Post by ericd »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #504
ericd wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geopolitics is way too complicated for such black and white thinking. Do you know who amongst the governments of those countries decided to back this Syrian president? I certainly don't. What percentage of the (huge) populations that you're damning as "deeply disgusting, sanctimonious hypocrites" do you think know who the current Syrian president is, his history, know who amongst their governments backed him, voted f…

> Geopolitics is way too complicated for such black and white thinking. Your comment reeks of western superiority and exceptionalism. Its not black and white thinking. It just hypocrisy at the highest level. The EU does not spend a single day without going around telling anyone and everyone that human rights are very important and that we should do absolutely everything to keep things that way but then turns around a…

No, I don't blame China or India for continuing to do business with Russia, it seems completely rational for them to do so. They're powerful enough to ignore the structures the US has built to try to exert leverage internationally. Seems like you're building lots of straw men in your mind of what US/EU citizens actually think, or the propaganda apparatus you're using to keep on top of this stuff has built them for you.

Re: Houthis 'take control' of key island in global shipping route

#540

Post by ericmay »

LtWorf wrote: post #333
ericmay wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be mad at America and ignore Iran's role if you want, but that doesn't lead you to anywhere productive. The United States like any country is an actor on the world stage that has interests and can take action to defend or assert those interests. If the world thinks this is a problem, they should have mediated between the United States and Iran and helped to prevent conflict. Instead they did next to nothing.…

What was Iran's role? Defending themselves?

Let me ask you a question. Can you explain over the last 5 years any bad or unjust thing Iran has done? I'm curious what your list is.
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