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The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

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Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#101

Post by jimbokun »

eudamoniac wrote: post #89
red-iron-pine wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shame only works if there are consequences. if you're not calling them out then you are complicit. you are accepting that, and you need to live with it. if you want someone to respect your feelings then ultimately you will have to make them. for broke-ass hoodrats, for whom economic factors won't work, that means eventually going to Louis' ultima ratio -- e.g. calling this out may lead to a fistfight on a moving bus.

More to the point, we currently share a society with many people of a violent culture, which makes directly shaming them dangerous and unwise. This was not always the case. The death of shaming is largely related to the increased daily proximity to violent subcultures who do not fear consequences.

Those subcultures have their own notions of shame and honor, and have lines they are careful about crossing and willingness to turn to violence if their honor is overly injured.

Disapproving glances on the subway when their music is too loud does not rise to that level, however.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#102

Post by jimbokun »

roenxi wrote: post #28

There seems to be a bit of a gap vis a vis solutions in the article - someone could set the system up so it doesn't incentivise tanking. The punishment for tanking should be that the teams performed poorly for no compensation. It's all very well to set up a system to encourage poor behaviour then shame the people who behave rationally. But it is much more sustainable in the long term to make good behaviour also strat…

> someone could set the system up so it doesn't incentivise tanking

It's called promotion and relegation.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#103

Post by trescenzi »

I recently heard the term _vice signaling_ and it’s very appropriate for this era. While in the past virtue signaling would be used to identify yourself as the member of an ingroup. It’s now common to signal that by doing things that would previously, and by many still are, considered beyond the pale.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#104

Post by rdmuser »

trescenzi wrote: post #103

I recently heard the term _vice signaling_ and it’s very appropriate for this era. While in the past virtue signaling would be used to identify yourself as the member of an ingroup. It’s now common to signal that by doing things that would previously, and by many still are, considered beyond the pale.

Interesting I've been calling it sin signalling. It can also be a sort of power peacocking, "Look at me I'm so powerful I can get away with this vile thing." type stuff. It's not a modern creation but it's certainly popular with certain highly visible political clusters atm.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#105

Post by wartywhoa23 »

trescenzi wrote: post #103

I recently heard the term _vice signaling_ and it’s very appropriate for this era. While in the past virtue signaling would be used to identify yourself as the member of an ingroup. It’s now common to signal that by doing things that would previously, and by many still are, considered beyond the pale.

"If we don't do it, someone else will" is a perfect example of vice signalling.

Such an apt term, thanks.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#106

Post by deepfriedchokes »

plantain wrote: post #4

Sit on public transport and listen to everyone playing music / watching tiktok without headphones. Shame is dead.

That’s more about power than shame. When people feel powerless imposing on others is one of the only ways they can take a semblance of power back.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#107

Post by my-huge-pony »

plantain wrote: post #4

Sit on public transport and listen to everyone playing music / watching tiktok without headphones. Shame is dead.

FWIW I use public transport daily and it basically never happens (I honestly don't remember a single time, it's that rare). Maybe it's cultural thing, I mean country dependent? Loud teenagers of course happen, but they don't play music out loud.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#108

Post by swat535 »

my-huge-pony wrote: post #107
plantain wrote: post #4

Sit on public transport and listen to everyone playing music / watching tiktok without headphones. Shame is dead.

FWIW I use public transport daily and it basically never happens (I honestly don't remember a single time, it's that rare). Maybe it's cultural thing, I mean country dependent? Loud teenagers of course happen, but they don't play music out loud.

It's a cultural thing. For example if you go to Japan, you can hear a pin drop in trains.. cultural homogeneity plays a large role in this.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#109

Post by Fr0styMatt88 »

I think it was Dr K of Healtgygamer that explained it something like non-toxic shame is a useful signal — “I did something wrong and this is a signal telling me so; I need to correct my behaviour” vs toxic shame as in “I am fundamentally a bad/worthless person”. We kinda got the two tangled together and in trying to reduce the second, we probably demonised the first a bit too much.

Could be remembering wrong though.

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