91–100 of 109 posts
Sit on public transport and listen to everyone playing music / watching tiktok without headphones. Shame is dead.
Antisocial behaviour is easier, major crime is harder. Doesn't seem like the worst tradeoff to me.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, a shared understanding of the rules. Common context. Culture. There are in fact expectations of your behavior and that is not a bad thing, despite western popular culture attempting to tell us otherwise.
In an industrial society, too many rule followers results in people being reduced to cattle. We need a subset of our society to be ungovernable in order to stave off tyranny, because historically, smart people aren't trying or succeeding at that. As another commenter in this thread stated, though under different context, our bodies wouldn't make the venom if we didn't need it to survive.
I think a lot of the loss of shame is a result of multiculturalism. The more cultures you accept, the fewer behaviors you can openly shame. As a benign example, eating food with your hands rather than utensils. In some cultures this is rarely ever tolerated, in others it depends on the food item, and in others still you might always eat with your hands. These will be at odds and you have to decide what is OK to shame…
> As a benign example, eating food with your hands rather than utensils. In some cultures this is rarely ever tolerated, in others it depends on the food item, and in others still you might always eat with your hands. I know there are some strange people who eat pizza with a fork, but is there actually anyone who does that with say hamburgers?
Shame is only effective in a society of equals. If one day you may become my boss better treat you well. If one day anyone may become my neighbor better treat anonymous people well. If my kid may end married with yours then I better treat you well. For billionaires shame makes no sense. They will never have to confront the people that they abuse. Inequality makes consequences go away. The powerful have not shame beca…
> For billionaires shame makes no sense. They will never have to confront the people that they abuse. This sounds like you're agreeing with the article about consequentialism / "optimization culture" being the cause.
I was discussing this the other day. Shame and shaming are alive and well. Especially if you do not agree with whatever paradigm is being pushed, like supporting sports team X or not holding the prevailing opinion.
The "-phobic" seems to be the suffix to use these days. Just slap it on your favourite term and hurl it at the opponent.
Shame isn’t dead. Specific kinds of shame are increasingly on the way out, particularly when it comes to individuality and self-expression, but shame itself isn’t dying or dead so much as accountability flatly does not exist anymore. When the author bemoans a lack of shame in how the NBA teams tank games to improve later draft odds instead of playing out every game with ferocity and pride, what they’re actually bemoa…
> the lack of consequences Not saying the article is right, but the point is supposed to be that social norms used to (or should) be sufficient. People should feel and be made to feel shame for flagrant disrespect of core principles that their participation in a system would seem to entail (like playing to win). Speaking for myself, shame has certainly sometimes been enabling, sometimes disabling. Wanting to live up…
This requires shared “norms” and “core principles”, which we no longer possess. I’m not sure how to regain them either. It’s not like we’re going to agree on a new set of shared principles; each major political group prefers that social norms should reflect only their own priorities.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll tell that to the dude who pees in my staircase every other week, I must be just confused and too rich to understand.
Different countries must have different standards for that. Here, the result would be that the person owning the staircase would call a cleaning firm and then send the bill to the person, in combination with a warning that eviction may happen if further misuses of the property occur. If it happened every other week, the person would be evicted, and I suspect the bills from the cleaning company would be enough to make…
Not every society is like this.
I was discussing this the other day. Shame and shaming are alive and well. Especially if you do not agree with whatever paradigm is being pushed, like supporting sports team X or not holding the prevailing opinion.
I don't really know if I would call that shame, though. In Japan if you wear your shoes into someone's house you'll be lambasted with shame, but that's got a deep religious and cultural foundation behind it-- the person being shamed gets their nose rubbed into their mistake so that they don't do it again. There is a "re-centering" of the person so they get another chance. Nowadays in the west, holding an option contr…
OTOH Japan is generally very functional, despite this problem, so perhaps this is their homegrown Omelas. The few suffer greatly and unjustly so that the social order doesn’t break down. Hard to say. I hope it is possible for them to fix the problem without losing their culture.
Shame was more effective in the past is because it came with consequences - lost business, lower standing in the community, fewer romantic prospects. It used to be part a healthy survival instinct. Without repercussions, shame is just a handicap and those who don't have it have a massive advantage.
I don't get it. On one hand people are lamenting departure of shame, on the other they complain how easy it is to get your life ruined by becoming a target of internet hate for a minor transgression. Maybe the shame didn't disappear, just fell prey to increasing inequality where one end of the spectrum has very little where the other gets absurd amounts?
There was such an over use of shame to hurt people's social standing and careers that it stopped being effective. At some point, people lost all trust in the institutions carrying out the shaming and life ruining and started fighting back.
All of this is orthogonal to personal wealth. Some of the shamers were very wealthy and powerful people and some of the shamed were those with very little wealth, influence or power.