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So you want to use OpenRouter?

mmoustafa.com

101–110 of 208 posts

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#101

Co-founder and COO of OpenRouter here. Thanks everyone for the feedback here. Some of this we are aware of, some of it we aren't. Some we can fix, some of it is inherent to inference (and we in fact improve the situation dramatically). Philosophically, at OpenRouter we are trying to do two different things, that are sometimes at odds with one another: 1. Let you use a lot of capacity across a lot of providers, in a w…

Thanks for the insight here.

One thing to note about the first graph: nobody is doing as well as the first part on tool calling, and it's not close.

This might be the fault of the other providers, but it's probably just something slightly different that the first party does with the model inference program than anybody else, and that's not sure to weights it's due to vLLM twiddling (or whatever) and probably becuase the first part actually uses their own customized inference program rather than the standard methods that all the third party providers use. This isn't nefarious, it's just the challenge of these sorts of stochastic systems.

Having been in science for decades now, and seen benchmarking across many different fields, these results are completely expected for me. LLM serving is not mechanical, it's hard to get right and has lots of unknown footguns. Even something as extreme as scrambling a matrix will still likely get results that are nearly as good as normal, and if there's a bug deep in vLLM or the tensors metadata that results in that, then it's going to be pretty hard to find unless you're an active researcher with knowledge of the particular model you're running inference on. I kind of doubt that's happening here, but maybe!

In the scientific literature, when benchmarking methods, everybody's own method performs best in their own hands. Some attribute it to researchers gaming benchmarking for publication purposes, but I think it's just what we see here: the people who made a method are just the best at using it because they know all the quirks and use it best.

Programmers are not used to thinking with that nuance, and jump to conclusions about lying about quantizations, etc., but this is really just an unavoidable part of AI/ML methods: when things aren't perfect they're still pretty good and it's going to take the model creator to truly debug it. At least until the open weights ecosystem gets a lot better at ensuring reproducibility, and model cards are nowhere detailed enough for that to happen yet.

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#102

Co-founder and COO of OpenRouter here. Thanks everyone for the feedback here. Some of this we are aware of, some of it we aren't. Some we can fix, some of it is inherent to inference (and we in fact improve the situation dramatically). Philosophically, at OpenRouter we are trying to do two different things, that are sometimes at odds with one another: 1. Let you use a lot of capacity across a lot of providers, in a w…

What are your plans to improve a substantial lack of customer support? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49577159

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#103
I also believe some providers fallback to another model entirely. I was recently using Kimi K3 and saw that some requests had no reasoning trace whatsoever. Unsurprisingly, those requests were routed to the less reputable providers (Sail Research).

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#104
Pretty damning. We're using OpenRouter for some research tasks and it's making me question everything. I suspect lots of the model providers are running into issues like these: https://forum.level1techs.com/t/why-your-local-llm-feels-dum... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49402232)

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#105
Yes to all this but more. The thing that made me leave and go to a single provider was token caching. I have to keep blocking providers that don't properly cache. I see performance tank and then I look in the logs and a new provider has been rotated in and every call to them is uncached because they are clearly broken. This has happened a few times now and essentially destroys cost savings (these providers also often have terrible quality). Don't they monitor for simple things like this? Their own logs show how clear this pattern is for some providers. Simple cache % stats would allow them to block providers nearly instantly.

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#106

This squares with my, much much, smaller OpenRouter usage. It’s just incredibly unreliable and you are forced to pin providers and even then it can be a crapshoot as the author found. OpenRouter sells the idea of swapping being commodity providers but it couldn’t be further from the truth. Provider A is often not swappable for B or C (again, as this author found). It can be crazy-making as you sit there thinking “Ope…

You know you can define your own provider filters and orderings, right? The filters and such are not _that_ advanced, but it might do what you need if you haven't already tried that.

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#107
Until yesterday I used openrouter mostly as a portal to the big providers: google, anthropic, openai, without having to maintain keys and accounts and credits for all of them separately.

Yesterday I wanted to do a bit of benchmarking a prompt across multiple models. Small requests. Outside the big providers, the experience became awful. This explains that experience.

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#108
post #82
post #32

I do use OpenRouter for my personal use and this matches with my experience. I still use it because of it's top up model providing a way to not get surprised by out of control costs and being able to switch models with one account, but it's very noticeable at times. The models I've mainly been using recently are GLM 5.3 Flash and GLM 5.3. While obviously all these models have some variability, GLM 5.3 Flash feels lik…

Using the same provider?

exactly. you can specify a provider in your request to openrouter, or, better yet, use the :exacto endpoint to make open router automatically choose one that is good at tool calls.

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Hmm, yeah, good and condense version of what my previous comment said. I'm much impressed by your reading ability. 10month old account with 20k karma. Low value rubbish postings as a professional user. Sad.

[flagged]

Re: So you want to use OpenRouter?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way that OpenRouter frames it with having calls routed to whatever provider is handy encourages you to think that they’re all the same in basic functionality. Really sours me on OpenRouter.

I wouldn’t blame openrouter, blame the providers that have lower quality of service than they should

exactly. all of these people complaining are using it wrong. you cant just expect a layer of abstraction to perfectly fix all the layers below it! plus, open router does a great job of handling a lot of the provider problems, but it literally cannot fix the output of the provider
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