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The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

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Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#71
post #6

Shame is also a form of social control. Be ashamed you don't know your place, lower class person. Lack of required shame used to be called being "uppity".

I'll tell that to the dude who pees in my staircase every other week, I must be just confused and too rich to understand.

Different countries must have different standards for that. Here, the result would be that the person owning the staircase would call a cleaning firm and then send the bill to the person, in combination with a warning that eviction may happen if further misuses of the property occur. If it happened every other week, the person would be evicted, and I suspect the bills from the cleaning company would be enough to make that happen regardless.

If they couldn't identity the person they would setup cameras or a passage system to identity who uses the staircase until the problem can be solved. The law here allows apartment owners to setup cameras in the case of resolving problems with property and shared spaces. For example, in my building there are cameras in the garage and the garbage room, and entry require tags that get recorded when opening the door. Those intrusive actions where done to address past theft and misbehavior which in turn cost money to the company who own the building.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and by "manners" they mean "people acting how I think they should act"

Yes, a shared understanding of the rules. Common context. Culture. There are in fact expectations of your behavior and that is not a bad thing, despite western popular culture attempting to tell us otherwise.

In an industrial society, too many rule followers results in people being reduced to cattle. We need a subset of our society to be ungovernable in order to stave off tyranny, because historically, smart people aren't trying or succeeding at that. As another commenter in this thread stated, though under different context, our bodies wouldn't make the venom if we didn't need it to survive.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#74
post #61

I think a lot of the loss of shame is a result of multiculturalism. The more cultures you accept, the fewer behaviors you can openly shame. As a benign example, eating food with your hands rather than utensils. In some cultures this is rarely ever tolerated, in others it depends on the food item, and in others still you might always eat with your hands. These will be at odds and you have to decide what is OK to shame…

> As a benign example, eating food with your hands rather than utensils. In some cultures this is rarely ever tolerated, in others it depends on the food item, and in others still you might always eat with your hands.

I know there are some strange people who eat pizza with a fork, but is there actually anyone who does that with say hamburgers?

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#77
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. On one hand people are lamenting departure of shame, on the other they complain how easy it is to get your life ruined by becoming a target of internet hate for a minor transgression. Maybe the shame didn't disappear, just fell prey to increasing inequality where one end of the spectrum has very little where the other gets absurd amounts?

I think these two concepts go hand in hand. Perceived cancel culture is the thing that pushed some people to disregard the concerns of others entirely and live without shame. Another example is the concept of involution and lying flat in China. You can't have both if you assume that the entire population is equal. Too much involution breeds lying flat. Too harsh of a cancel culture (for minor faux pas, not sexual ass…

What's your definition of "involution" here? I looked it up, but I don't understand how it relates to lying flat.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a shared understanding of the rules. Common context. Culture. There are in fact expectations of your behavior and that is not a bad thing, despite western popular culture attempting to tell us otherwise.

In an industrial society, too many rule followers results in people being reduced to cattle. We need a subset of our society to be ungovernable in order to stave off tyranny, because historically, smart people aren't trying or succeeding at that. As another commenter in this thread stated, though under different context, our bodies wouldn't make the venom if we didn't need it to survive.

eating a smelly pizza in a cinema doesn't make you one of the Tolpuddle Martyrs

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#79
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these two concepts go hand in hand. Perceived cancel culture is the thing that pushed some people to disregard the concerns of others entirely and live without shame. Another example is the concept of involution and lying flat in China. You can't have both if you assume that the entire population is equal. Too much involution breeds lying flat. Too harsh of a cancel culture (for minor faux pas, not sexual ass…

What's your definition of "involution" here? I looked it up, but I don't understand how it relates to lying flat.

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