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The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

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Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#41

Post by TFNA »

Frieren wrote: post #35

Shame is only effective in a society of equals. If one day you may become my boss better treat you well. If one day anyone may become my neighbor better treat anonymous people well. If my kid may end married with yours then I better treat you well. For billionaires shame makes no sense. They will never have to confront the people that they abuse. Inequality makes consequences go away. The powerful have not shame beca…

Shame is deeply entrenched in societies of great inequality and social hierarchy. There's a lot of reading within anthropology on honor cultures.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#42

Post by sdcfgy »

dguest wrote: post #37

Football / Soccer had "flopping" [1], which anyone who watched it in the early 2000s would recognize: every foul was accompanied by a "victim" writhing on the field in agony, in excess of anything you'd see in much more violent sports. Apparently it's diminished a bit in recent years, but not because it's clearly shameful behavior: the leagues started issuing bans. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_(associati…

Apart from Argentina in the World Cup.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#43

Post by fyredge »

scotty79 wrote: post #29
shib71 wrote: post #21

Shame was more effective in the past is because it came with consequences - lost business, lower standing in the community, fewer romantic prospects. It used to be part a healthy survival instinct. Without repercussions, shame is just a handicap and those who don't have it have a massive advantage.

I don't get it. On one hand people are lamenting departure of shame, on the other they complain how easy it is to get your life ruined by becoming a target of internet hate for a minor transgression. Maybe the shame didn't disappear, just fell prey to increasing inequality where one end of the spectrum has very little where the other gets absurd amounts?

I think these two concepts go hand in hand. Perceived cancel culture is the thing that pushed some people to disregard the concerns of others entirely and live without shame.

Another example is the concept of involution and lying flat in China. You can't have both if you assume that the entire population is equal. Too much involution breeds lying flat. Too harsh of a cancel culture (for minor faux pas, not sexual assault) breeds contempt.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#45

Post by alpinisme »

dmd wrote: post #31
plantain wrote: post #4

Sit on public transport and listen to everyone playing music / watching tiktok without headphones. Shame is dead.

I think there’s a difference between knowing you’re doing something wrong and not caring, and not even knowing you’re doing anything wrong. What you’re describing is usually the latter.

They definitely get glares and annoyed looks from fellow passengers. And they must be oblivious if they’ve never noticed other people distractingly listening to music next to them or whatever.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#46

Post by dguest »

dmje wrote: post #32

How is shame different from "just being a decent person"?

It's the same thing, and both are vulnerable to disingenuous applications of cultural relativism.

You'll see similar arguments on this thread: "shame is just what you don't approve of", etc. Yes, it's just about being a decent person, and no, scientists still haven't discovered a moral axis in the universe that says what that means. Unfortunately we're in a position where we have to explain that "just be a decent person", which is an inclination shared by 95% of people anyway, isn't some vestigial instinct that modern humans should be ridding themselves of.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#48

Post by TFNA »

jhbadger wrote: post #38
plantain wrote: post #4

Sit on public transport and listen to everyone playing music / watching tiktok without headphones. Shame is dead.

That I really don't get (and I experience it a lot using transit for my commute) . It seems more common now, but you'd think it would be less common. Headphones used to be bulky things, now Bluetooth earbuds are tiny things easily put in your pocket -- why not use them?

Because fuck you, that's why.

More seriously, whenever I ask a young person on public transport to use headphones (and luckily I live in a region where I can safely do that and enjoy some authority as an older person), the response is usually that the youth doesn't have headphones on him for whatever reason (doesn't own any, left them at home, whatever). But with the breakdown of this taboo, people don't feel that not having headphones should stop them from sweet TikTok dopamine.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#49

Post by igsomething »

dguest wrote: post #37

Football / Soccer had "flopping" [1], which anyone who watched it in the early 2000s would recognize: every foul was accompanied by a "victim" writhing on the field in agony, in excess of anything you'd see in much more violent sports. Apparently it's diminished a bit in recent years, but not because it's clearly shameful behavior: the leagues started issuing bans. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_(associati…

It wasn't about diving in particular, but rather post-match revisions and sanctions becoming more common to punish unsportsmanship. Add VAR in recent years, and the newest "1 minute out" rule for fake injury, and today players don't gain anything from diving.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#50

Post by fc417fc802 »

scotty79 wrote: post #29
shib71 wrote: post #21

Shame was more effective in the past is because it came with consequences - lost business, lower standing in the community, fewer romantic prospects. It used to be part a healthy survival instinct. Without repercussions, shame is just a handicap and those who don't have it have a massive advantage.

I don't get it. On one hand people are lamenting departure of shame, on the other they complain how easy it is to get your life ruined by becoming a target of internet hate for a minor transgression. Maybe the shame didn't disappear, just fell prey to increasing inequality where one end of the spectrum has very little where the other gets absurd amounts?

If the consequences become a step function it makes intuitive sense that the gradual downstream behavior would go away.
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