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OpenAI Agents API

developers.openai.com

151–160 of 202 posts

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#151
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> building your own harness is a huge undertaking, a deep rabbit hole. I eventually gave up on this task. It's not possible to fight OpenAI or Anthropic's engineering teams. Their reasoning models have all kinds of undocumented back door access to the base models that you'd never be able to replicate from the outside. Even if you had full access you would not have the engineering man hours or experience to keep up. I…

I feel like you could use an open-source harness like Pi and get 100+% of what these closed APIs offer without getting locked to OpenAI. What do you think is missing from them?

Lack of risk to the business. If it was just me and my tinker toys, the open path makes a lot of sense.

I am in the business of provisioning custom AI robots for paying customers. I need to be able to provide certain assurances and offer operational simplicity or the whole thing falls apart. These systems need to survive in their environments. Accounting and compliance teams feel a lot more comfortable with the landscape around the frontier model companies.

If I went to my favorite client on Monday and tried to sell them what HN seems to think is the most ideologically pure AI solution, I would probably be fired as a vendor.

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#152
I launched Epho a few weeks ago as an API like this but for all harnesses: https://epho.io

I built it primarily for ourselves: we are building an AI data engineer, and we need a way to run many of them in parallel securely. An API for this seemed like the most obvious path forward. It makes it trivial to bring agentic capabilities into any product surface without having to deal with sandboxes, reliability issues, compatibility problems, and more.

I think it also makes sense from OpenAI's perspective to do this, but also we did find ourselves needing to change models and harnesses quite a bit, which is why I think this needs to be a layer of its own above the labs. It also needs to be a layer above the sandboxes, since many of them are quite brittle.

Overall, I expect a lot of the agent implementations to move in this direction. I think this is a lot saner for engineers to implement and maintain, and it makes it trivial to build agentic stuff into products.

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#153
post #65

I think we’re still figuring out the right abstraction for offering agents as a product. - LLMs are a great foundation but building your own harness is a huge undertaking, a deep rabbit hole. - There are harnesses available as open source libraries but that’s still coupled to an environment. Where does the state persist? Like maybe I’m a Cloudflare worker and don’t even have a file system. Agent as a service like thi…

> building your own harness is a huge undertaking, a deep rabbit hole. I eventually gave up on this task. It's not possible to fight OpenAI or Anthropic's engineering teams. Their reasoning models have all kinds of undocumented back door access to the base models that you'd never be able to replicate from the outside. Even if you had full access you would not have the engineering man hours or experience to keep up. I…

> > building your own harness is a huge undertaking, a deep rabbit hole. > I eventually gave up on this task.

It's not trivial, but cmon, i did during weekends from my phone and FOR ME it's so much better than the codex or claude, it has every i need and want :D

I'm using my own harness for work and hobby, has github integration, review mode, interactive voice mode, overlayed worktree, browser integration, mcp and much more.

Using claude and codex feels like picking up a club, in-line with the caveman skill...

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#154
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> building your own harness is a huge undertaking, a deep rabbit hole. I eventually gave up on this task. It's not possible to fight OpenAI or Anthropic's engineering teams. Their reasoning models have all kinds of undocumented back door access to the base models that you'd never be able to replicate from the outside. Even if you had full access you would not have the engineering man hours or experience to keep up. I…

I built my harness in pi within herdr, I cloned (zipped and downloaded) 0xRichardH/pi-herdr-subagents and went from there, and used pi to build itself, adding gate workflow state control, provider fallbacks (I use many token plans), subagent skill injection, etc. It is highly custom to my needs and wants, and I think every developer needs to do this. I only talk to my planner which plans, and it subs out to designer,…

100% every professional developer at some point should build its own harness as daily driver

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built my harness in pi within herdr, I cloned (zipped and downloaded) 0xRichardH/pi-herdr-subagents and went from there, and used pi to build itself, adding gate workflow state control, provider fallbacks (I use many token plans), subagent skill injection, etc. It is highly custom to my needs and wants, and I think every developer needs to do this. I only talk to my planner which plans, and it subs out to designer,…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the harness will always be dependent on the underlying model, and useless without it. All custom harnesses are being built, could be obsolete in the next big-generation-jump of the models. I might be absolutely wrong, but "harnesses" / cc-derivatives became "good enough" only maybe a year ago max. Before that, people were pushing for gigantic folder structures with custom documents and "p…

A lot of what a custom harness does isn't necessarily interacting with a model, it's the framework around it. Part of harness engineering is figuring out what can be done deterministically to avoid calling an LLM. A generational jump doesn't obsolete those areas, it just means you get the right answer (maybe) faster and easier when you do call the model.

There's a difference between their harness and your harness. The latter can be tuned to your preferences, while the former cannot. A custom harness can do everything that a packaged harness cannot. Good luck getting Claude Code to coordinate with multiple model providers or deeply integrate with your environment.

The point you're making is to be a consumer, which admittedly, is probably best for most people, but it's not going to satisfy the hacker. Normies aren't building custom harnesses, so your argument is DOA for the target demographic.

Also, vendor lock-in. No thanks.

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built my harness in pi within herdr, I cloned (zipped and downloaded) 0xRichardH/pi-herdr-subagents and went from there, and used pi to build itself, adding gate workflow state control, provider fallbacks (I use many token plans), subagent skill injection, etc. It is highly custom to my needs and wants, and I think every developer needs to do this. I only talk to my planner which plans, and it subs out to designer,…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the harness will always be dependent on the underlying model, and useless without it. All custom harnesses are being built, could be obsolete in the next big-generation-jump of the models. I might be absolutely wrong, but "harnesses" / cc-derivatives became "good enough" only maybe a year ago max. Before that, people were pushing for gigantic folder structures with custom documents and "p…

I switched between several local and remote providers and models and over different API (anthropic/openai) and it worked fine, just some minor issues but they were fixed within an hour.

And the system prompt worked great regardless, so i don't think your main point holds, especially as models improves; it isn't throwaway code, but for sure it's evolving constantly, as my own workflow keeps changing.

> My point is, depended on what you're trying to achieve, testing out current-gen harnesses, and nudging your workflows towards them might be better RoI, rather than chasing something that might be throwaway code a quarter later.

Fair point, depends if it's an hobby or you are a developer full time, in the latter case i think it's definitively worth it.

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#158

I launched Epho a few weeks ago as an API like this but for all harnesses: https://epho.io I built it primarily for ourselves: we are building an AI data engineer, and we need a way to run many of them in parallel securely. An API for this seemed like the most obvious path forward. It makes it trivial to bring agentic capabilities into any product surface without having to deal with sandboxes, reliability issues, com…

I've commented about this before, I think many LLM based apps nowadays are at risk of being replaced by a product straight from the labs once they prove to be successful.

We've seen this pattern with Apple making their own version of an app that was previously popular on the app store.

The labs are in a perfect position to do this - they have a bunch of data on what's being used and they have direct access to their own models/compute. If an external service is popular, it's relatively trivial for them to estimate how much additional profit they're leaving on the table.

If the usecase isn't far from their core business (and things like this absolutely aren't), with their size, why wouldn't they eat other people's lunches?

Re: OpenAI Agents API

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the harness will always be dependent on the underlying model, and useless without it. All custom harnesses are being built, could be obsolete in the next big-generation-jump of the models. I might be absolutely wrong, but "harnesses" / cc-derivatives became "good enough" only maybe a year ago max. Before that, people were pushing for gigantic folder structures with custom documents and "p…

You are wrong. I honestly am having trouble understanding how you think these things work, and what you believe a harness is in the first place. There is the standard API that things like openRouter exposes, thats supported by every provider, and all it is, is manipulating a large blob of memory by adding your own words or asking the GPU to append new words. Everything else around it is window dressing. All providers…

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that what you’re doing is wrong, although re-reading my own comment sounds like so.

The capabilities of a model unlocks certain harness behaviour, and in its terms might be beneficial to automate more of your x, y, z.

I guess computer use would be an example I was thinking about. Certain models are not as good as some current models (Astra/Fable) in understanding through screenshots, or going through some hoops in some environments. As models evolve, they unlock new capabilities, that you either have to keep implementing in your harness, or using an existing one. I’m pro-using existing just because it doesn’t make sense for my org to support another dev tool internally, when there is heavy better development happening by people who focus on that.

The reason why i said cc-derivative, as far as I can see, cc was the one that convinced people “it might be a good idea to dev this way”. Sure you had some lesser known harnesses around, but a year+ ago, nobody really cared.

I don’t think, at least as of now, anything is really much of a lock in. We switch out between cc/codex/cursor and it takes trivial amount of time to set stuff up, depended on how your dev loop goes.

Again, it really depends on one’s conviction of “how fast things will develop from now on”. I personally think stuff will keep changing very fast. In a year what we think of harnesses will be different. Investing in custom tooling might be bad, as that is basically a lock-in. But again, I don’t know the future, but that’s my bet. Hovering around the edges and using what others battle test is an easy way out right now.

Also in some larger orgs, there is more friction in model choices. So you slowly start losing the benefits of model-swapping. Obviously different for personal projects.

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