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Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

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Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#131
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per capita is worse by definition, unless your arguing that people with higher per capita emissions are somehow more valuable to society than those with lower. The other aspect is that China provides a large industrial base for the West, which is arguably the West just externalizing/offshoring their emissions anyway.

> Per capita is worse by definition, unless your arguing that people with higher per capita emissions are somehow more valuable to society than those with lower. By what definition? If Norway has a 100x higher per-capital admissions rate and 5 people live there it’s inconsequential. > The other aspect is that China provides a large industrial base for the West, which is arguably the West just externalizing/offshoring…

> When you write things like China is arguably the recipient of western emissions offshoring, despite western countries taking actions to decarbonize or add environmental efficiencies, you deprive China and Chinese people of agency and responsible for their decisions.

Not only that, it's a misdirect to try to blame countries that have more stringent emissions rules for the results in a country that doesn't.

Suppose that every country banned coal. Obviously then the location of the factories or customers wouldn't affect the amount of coal being burned because the number would be zero either way.

Suppose no country regulated emissions at all. Again the amount of coal being burned doesn't depend on the location of the factories because companies would be able to burn as much as they like regardless of where they are.

But suppose that some countries have emissions rules and others don't. As a result, the companies that want to burn coal move to the countries where they're allowed to do it. Now the amount of emissions does depend on where the factories are. But if the country where they are had the same emissions rules then they would be less competitive -- and so they choose to attract a disproportionate share of the manufacturing to a place that uses dirty power. That's definitely a choice -- compare it to the outcome where every country stops burning coal.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#132

Will all these data centers really be needed in 5 or 10 years from now? The technology, compression, etc, for models are getting better and better requiring less and less H/W and power to run the same inference power. Perhaps our hunger for ever more powerful models will be enough to offset this, but I am not sure.

Probably yes, and if not, it can most likely be repurposed

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#133

Will all these data centers really be needed in 5 or 10 years from now? The technology, compression, etc, for models are getting better and better requiring less and less H/W and power to run the same inference power. Perhaps our hunger for ever more powerful models will be enough to offset this, but I am not sure.

[deleted]

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#134
post #26

Oh good. Then Google will be "clean", while countless homes will be getting their power from coal or whatever instead of this nuclear plant.

The plant may be closed without this Google's order. The cost to keep it running is substantial. I guess that's what you prefer? "The Finland deal will ensure that the Loviisa plant keeps operating beyond 2030, the companies said in a statement. Keeping it running until 2050 will require about €1 billion of investments over the years" https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-09/google-gi...

Lol, it certainly wouldn't have been decommissioned in any case. For that to happen electricity consumption would need to be going down instead of up and Finland would need to have abundance of steady power to replace it.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#135

Will all these data centers really be needed in 5 or 10 years from now? The technology, compression, etc, for models are getting better and better requiring less and less H/W and power to run the same inference power. Perhaps our hunger for ever more powerful models will be enough to offset this, but I am not sure.

We will all be happy with our local inference, but how will our overloards be able to surveil and control us en-masse without them?

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#136
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they’re displacing previous nuclear power users onto dirtier They are not. The plant may not survive beyond 2030 without this order.

Where did you read this? What I read is that Fortum was considering extending to 2050 as early as 2018 and finalized those plans 2 years ago. I read nothing that indicates the survival of this plant is dependent on this Google deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loviisa_Nuclear_Power_Plant

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49652346

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#137
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> government regulations to put a cap on utility profits I don't know about Finland specifically, but isn't this already the case practically everywhere?

Governments are extremely bad at calculating how much something "should" cost. Profits are revenue minus expenses. "Expenses" are revenue to someone else. Whenever you try to cap "profit" of some entity that isn't actually subject to competitive pressure, the next thing that happens is that the people running it start colluding or taking kickbacks from any of the people whose revenue constitutes their expenses. Becau…

Do those problems exist as much if the excess was forced into them investing into a certain type of power generation? It seems less "heavy handed", since it's a proper investment for them.

I enjoy a particularly nasty utility monopoly where I am, in a dark blue state, where there is exactly zero political interest in breaking any monopolies. Any competition would probably have to be forced at a federal level. I think less bribing of politicians would happen if you tried to make them do something they were basically already going to do.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2026/03/22/uti...

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#138
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You now have a PhD in your pocket. Is that not the miracle of the free market? King Richard II would have killed for an iPhone, PS5, air conditioning, and Uber Eats. He'd swap places with you, and he was king. You don't realize how awesome you have it. Just a hundred years ago your ancestors were (probably) eating rotten meat and drinking unclean water.

> King Richard II would have killed for an iPhone, PS5, air conditioning, and Uber Eats. He'd swap places with you, and he was king. I don't for a moment believe that, but apparently arguments that cannot possibly be proven are in vogue nowadays.

Would you switch positions with King Richard II, then? That's a hypothesis we can test since you're here.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#139
post #5

Good on Google. Finland has low emissions from electricity : https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/all/yearly 71 gC02eq/kwH France, Sweden and Norway look like good places for data centres in Europe too on the basis of low electricity emissions.

At least Sweden is struggling a lot with scaling its power production, to the point where it's a problem for existing and new industries and causing some rather extreme price volatility. A lot of the green energy is from hydro dams and you can't really add new rivers to the geography to support additional industry.

I’m starting to think that perhaps the government here in .se should support new reactors. It won’t be cheap though…

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how South Australia solved a problem of the Whyalla Steelworks when transitioning to 100% renewable electricity? They excluded on-site generation of the plant from the statistics. "Solarization" of the plant hadn't worked out economically. Continuous manufacturing processes have big problems with intermittent energy sources. China is building tens of nuclear power plants though.

> Continuous manufacturing processes have big problems with intermittent energy sources. Intermittent energy sources are predictable in aggregate. A fairly modest amount of storage to smooth things out and you can pretty reasonably get above 50% solar and wind. Make up a large chunk of the balance with nuclear and hydro and you're pretty close to 100%. The last 10% is obviously the hardest, but what's the excuse for…

Predictability will not get a plant through the night by itself. BTW, it's about 7 units of wind energy to 1 unit of solar energy plus significant overcapacity plus increase of the grid transmission capacity plus additional measures for grid stabilization (like synchronous condensers) to get to a "fairly modest amount of storage."

> Trouble being they're still operating ~1200 coal power plants.

Yeah, it's because of the above points.

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