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Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

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Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#651

Post by infecto »

speedstyle wrote: post #429
bretthoerner wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said both "tram" and "neighbourhood" so I'm assuming you aren't in the US. I truly mean no offense, but it's hard to express how spread out even the most metropolitan areas are in the US. Sure, NYC is one thing. But check out the ~10th largest city, Austin, where Waymo and other autonomous vehicles are (I think) in their largest deployment. Just on a map, or by density numbers, or whatever metric you want. I'm in…

US cities are spread out due to policies enacted only 50–60 years ago to improve connectivity by car. New policies can (and will) reshape them again in the next couple of decades. For example, building transit creates environments where people's trips are well served by transit.

Next couple of decades? No way the scale/sprawl for most US cities already exists, 20 years is not changing a thing.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#652

Post by mcv »

johnfn wrote: post #281
giantg2 wrote: post #234

Better driver education and higher test standards would save lives too. So would banning alcohol. None of these solutions, including automated cars, will be mandated any time soon. It's not enough to have data, you also have to have societal buy-in. Interesting that Waymo chooses to compare accident rates with the average driver vs the rideshare drivers their cars replace. The numbers wouldn't look as impressive beca…

As a biker, I've had human drivers intentionally try to drive me off the road or hit me. Neither driver education nor higher test standards will solve that problem.

Some people simply need to be banned from driving. Anyone intentionally trying to hit someone in traffic definitely qualifies.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#653

Post by drob518 »

giantg2 wrote: post #234

Better driver education and higher test standards would save lives too. So would banning alcohol. None of these solutions, including automated cars, will be mandated any time soon. It's not enough to have data, you also have to have societal buy-in. Interesting that Waymo chooses to compare accident rates with the average driver vs the rideshare drivers their cars replace. The numbers wouldn't look as impressive beca…

> If we want adoption, we would need it be placed in individual vehicles and it should look at removing driver liability.

Liability is the biggest issue holding back widespread adoption, IMO. The tech is pretty good already. Yet accidents are still going to happen. The question is m who pays when they do? The “driver”? The taxi operator? The car manufacturer? It’s all unclear at best right now.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#654

Post by infecto »

jokteur wrote: post #626
ElijahLynn wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transit doesn't really go that far, when you talk about the last mile it's pretty limited. But I do like what you're going with that and maybe we could have public autonomous car infrastructure that we all share. And just one large global team working on awesome autonomous vehicles. That could be little pod type vehicles for one person and bigger ones as needed. Cuz the road system is pretty broad and amazing…

I live in Switzerland. Public transit goes _everywhere_, even remote villages and mountains. This is by design, such that one can only use public transit to go almost everywhere in the country. Is public transit always more convenient than the individual car ? No, but you can make the conscious choice of not owning a car, even if you need to raise a family. Switzerland has a high rate of car ownership, because we hav…

Good for your country but also your country is quite small. I think a better analog is taking a trip from Zurich to Madrid. You could do it via train but it is probably going to be filled with lots of transfers and take 20 hours or you could take a 2 hour flight.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#655

Post by infecto »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #493
cbondurant wrote: post #125

I'd much rather all of the resources that are going into autonomous cars was instead going into proper public transit infrastructure. Cars are so hopelessly space and energy inefficient, and I hate driving them. If I could get around by bus, light rail, bike, and all of the wasted city space devoted to parking could be turned into more housing and amenities, that would be great. I think it would be meaningful to also…

People always say this, but a) even countries known for good transit like Japan still have a ton of cars for various things, and b) there's no getting around that the money going into self-driving cars vs public transit isn't something that can really be swapped. It's coming from a different place for a different reason. We absolutely could invest into more trains even with the SDC money flowing anyway, it's not like…

They also always hand wave the last mile problem. Last time this came up some folks were adamant that you could solve public transit and specifically last mile in a city like Dallas.

I welcome the car overlords like Waymo or related companies. I believe this is absolutely a step in the right direction and bringing up the public transit is sort of a “perfect is the enemy of good enough” situation.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#656

Post by tossandthrow »

rrr_oh_man wrote: post #641
tossandthrow wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better idea would just be to let drivers pay the real price for the infrastructure they occupy and their negative externalities. Then people would likely not have a issue with public transit.

"Let's make car owners more miserable" is a typical sentiment held by young, healthy people who live in dense cities and ride an electric bicycle to work. Not everyone can do that. Many areas also completely lack the public transit infrastructure needed to support a normal life. E.g., a couple of days ago, I was shocked to learn just how bad the UK public transport system really is, apparently, outside of major metro…

The gas lighting in this comment is strong.

> "Let's make car owners more miserable"

I proposed to let people pay for the services they use.

That is not an attack on redistribution to unhealthy older people living outside of the city.

In the contrary. By reducing the load on the transport infrastructure you make it easier for them to use it.

And for your wish to redistribute: That can easily be done without the city making the use of the land for roads free. You could literally just give subsidies to people who absolutely need cars.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#657

Post by mrngld »

tossandthrow wrote: post #596
TulliusCicero wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always say this, but a) even countries known for good transit like Japan still have a ton of cars for various things, and b) there's no getting around that the money going into self-driving cars vs public transit isn't something that can really be swapped. It's coming from a different place for a different reason. We absolutely could invest into more trains even with the SDC money flowing anyway, it's not like…

A better idea would just be to let drivers pay the real price for the infrastructure they occupy and their negative externalities. Then people would likely not have a issue with public transit.

The negative externalities? On net the benefits are enormously positive, which is why every community around the world down to the very poorest, even illiterate societies (ancient civs were mostly illiterate and still built extensive road networks) will start clearing paths to make transport easier. It's an enormous social net benefit, the free, fast, efficient movement of people from one point of their choosing to another.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#658

Post by guy200 »

astura wrote: post #649
72deluxe wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country is this? In the UK they take your licence off you straight away as soon as there is a dementia diagnosis, I believe.

Most people are losing their facilities years before any formal diagnosis and plenty of people, especially those who don't want to lose their freedom simply won't go to the doctor for a diagnosis. Nobody can force someone to see a doctor.

My father was one of these. He lived across the country from us adult children and just seemed to be slowing down but an unrelated traumatic event exposed his early onset dementia acutely when his reactions to it were so strange. It also seemed to knock the facade off his familiarity with day to day life that was somewhat hiding his dementia. We then took him to the doctor and he was diagnosed.

Luckily he did not put up a fight when we took his keys but up to that point he was driving a giant truck around every day, seemingly mostly on instinct. I am still thankful that did not end in tragedy before we were able to move him into a controlled environment.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#659

Post by 72deluxe »

astura wrote: post #649
72deluxe wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country is this? In the UK they take your licence off you straight away as soon as there is a dementia diagnosis, I believe.

Most people are losing their facilities years before any formal diagnosis and plenty of people, especially those who don't want to lose their freedom simply won't go to the doctor for a diagnosis. Nobody can force someone to see a doctor.

I wonder what the solution to this problem is?

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#660

Post by slfnflctd »

Gigachad wrote: post #358
goda90 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if there's affordable transportation available.

There's a large percent of people who have their daily commute possible by public transport, but the weekend or odd trips are not well covered. A cheaper uber powered by self driving would cover the odd trips and save people the massive expense of owning a car.

The main problem I see with this argument is that I'm not sure how we get to a "cheaper uber" with fully autonomous vehicles.

A large percentage of rideshare drivers use the cheapest allowable vehicles and make minimum wage or less after expenses.

There is also the issue of who gets paid to clean the garbage passengers will inevitably leave in the autonomous vehicle (ask me how I know). Or worse, vomit or other hazardous bodily excretions.

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