Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

641–650 of 766 posts

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#641

Post by rrr_oh_man »

tossandthrow wrote: post #596
TulliusCicero wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always say this, but a) even countries known for good transit like Japan still have a ton of cars for various things, and b) there's no getting around that the money going into self-driving cars vs public transit isn't something that can really be swapped. It's coming from a different place for a different reason. We absolutely could invest into more trains even with the SDC money flowing anyway, it's not like…

A better idea would just be to let drivers pay the real price for the infrastructure they occupy and their negative externalities. Then people would likely not have a issue with public transit.

"Let's make car owners more miserable" is a typical sentiment held by young, healthy people who live in dense cities and ride an electric bicycle to work.

Not everyone can do that. Many areas also completely lack the public transit infrastructure needed to support a normal life.

E.g., a couple of days ago, I was shocked to learn just how bad the UK public transport system really is, apparently, outside of major metros (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49445286)

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#642

Post by hobofan »

Symbiote wrote: post #548
rglullis wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution for this is to improve biking infrastructure.

Not only that. Copenhagen is littered with electric hire bikes, very often just a few steps from a bike rack with empty spaces. Only one of the companies makes users photograph the bike to show it's been returned to a suitable spot.

Photographing bikes or electric scooters does nothing without enforcement through the city. It allows tracking down the person who placed it wrong, but in the absence of fines through the city, the rental companies surely won't start fining their customers and drive them away.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#643

Post by rrr_oh_man »

bretthoerner wrote: post #299
embedding-shape wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the last mile it's pretty limited. Where is that last mile exactly? In many metropolitan areas, you typically have available a broad selection of trains, subways, trams and/or buses of different sizes that takes you last mile. Some places even have special buses, like the "Neighbourhood Bus" we have here ( https://www.barcelona.cat/mobilitat/sites/default/files/bcn-... ) for narrow and steep neighborhoods up on mou…

You said both "tram" and "neighbourhood" so I'm assuming you aren't in the US. I truly mean no offense, but it's hard to express how spread out even the most metropolitan areas are in the US. Sure, NYC is one thing. But check out the ~10th largest city, Austin, where Waymo and other autonomous vehicles are (I think) in their largest deployment. Just on a map, or by density numbers, or whatever metric you want. I'm in…

> I have 3 kids and if I could snap my fingers and swap them for Tesla Robotaxis (Waymos are better and safer!) I would in a second.

Uh, what?

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#644

Post by dzhiurgis »

dublinben wrote: post #530
dzhiurgis wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building roads for buses are _few orders of magnitude more_ expensive than roads for cars only. Unfortunately we still have trucking, but it's starting to feel we should build separate roads for them and for special cases only allow multi-axle delivery trucks on normal roads.

You’re right, we should! We could even build these special purpose, heavy duty roads out of something stronger than asphalt, like metal. Then once we have these sturdy new metal roads for trucks, we can raise the weight limit to allow them to carry heavier loads. And since there’s no little cars getting in the way, we could even group together multiple trucks going in the same direction for better logistical efficien…

I don't. Railways are failing around the world, including freight.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#645

Post by infecto »

speedstyle wrote: post #448
infecto wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when folks are given that option or driving they will always take driving.

Obviously that's not true, but moreover it's meaningless – what counts as an option?

But it is. In America if you tell someone they are going to need to walk home for 15 minutes they will in the base case opt to take their car.

This type of convo has come up in a number of different ways on HN and folks just hand wave away the problems in the US all the time. Americans don’t want to walk outside for an extended amount of time and the last mile(s) problem is quite hard.

In most US cities you cannot economically solve the last mile problem efficiently with public transit and similarly most folks will already opt to take their car even if the public transit is great. You will likely be left with at least a few miles for someone to get home. So now are people transferring to other modes of transport because they are not taking a bicycle?

So what are you trying to say?

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#646

Post by thfuran »

ifwinterco wrote: post #591
Gareth321 wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been following Tesla communities and a common response to using FSD is that it makes people nicer drivers. Thousands of people admitting that they can be angry drivers. That they get frustrated in traffic and can take risks or be aggressive on the road. With FSD they almost universally claim to be calmer, care less about being cut off, and almost never experience road rage.

Best way to improve the behaviour of other drivers (at least in the UK): drive a van, ideally an unmarked one with a couple of dents already. Miraculously everyone else suddenly learns how to drive and doesn't try anything stupid

Driving a big van sucks though, even in the US.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#647

Post by rrr_oh_man »

Tinned_Tuna wrote: post #492
nonethewiser wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I could get around by bus, light rail, bike, and all of the wasted city space devoted to parking could be turned into more housing and amenities, that would be great. I guess it depends on where we're talking about. The majority of the US is not inside a city. So just diverting all resources into public transportation is only serving the metros. If we're talking about a small country then sure.

> The majority of the US is not inside a city. I think this isn't true for the US any more, maybe it hasn't been true for decades? WorldBank seems to have the ubranisation rate at around 80% for the US: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?locat... There is a bit of a definitional problem, with people living in suburbs identifying as rural, as do folks in exurbs. I don't think they're considered rur…

It's much simpler than that.

UN urbanization rate is based on the national definition.

The U.S. definition of urban area is based on population (and has been changed recently):

  Under the old criteria, an urbanized area needed to have at least 50,000 residents. An urban cluster was defined as having at least 2,500 people, a threshold that had been around since 1910. Under this definition, almost 81 percent of the U.S. was urban and 19 percent was rural over the past decade.

  Under the new definition, hammered out after the 2020 census, the minimum population required for an area to be considered urban doubled to 5,000 people. Originally, the Census Bureau proposed raising the threshold to 10,000 people but pulled back amid opposition. The new criteria for urban areas shift the urban-rural ratio slightly, to 79.6 percent and 20.4 percent, respectively.
Source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/u-s-census-bureau-rede... ("U.S. Census Bureau redefines the meaning of urban areas in America", PBS, Dec 29, 2022)

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#648

Post by pjc50 »

kay_o wrote: post #265
giantg2 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be a surveillance state for enforcement. Just preventing repeat offenders would practically remove that lowest denominator. For example, I knew a guy in high school who totaled 4 cars and had other minor accidents in 2 years. There's no reason for that person to be allowed to operate a vehicle. On the prevention side, we could require more training. If you tried to enforce self driving cars, you'd…

> There's no reason for that person to be allowed to operate a vehicle Doesn't much of america outside of cities also have the secondary problem of you physically cannot feed yourself, get to appointments, or do anything without operating a vehicle?

> you physically cannot feed yourself, get to appointments, or do anything without operating a vehicle?

You also physically cannot feed yourself, get to appointments, or do anything else once you've been fatally run over by a vehicle.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#649

Post by astura »

72deluxe wrote: post #638
cineticdaffodil wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing we get wiser with age. Oh, wait no we don't. We insist on driving while beeing unable to look over the shoulder or having dementia. Knew somebody whose by no deceased dementia afflicted father used google to navigate him home when he forgot where he was. Thats the accidents with a "confused" driver, not from the accident.

Which country is this? In the UK they take your licence off you straight away as soon as there is a dementia diagnosis, I believe.

Most people are losing their facilities years before any formal diagnosis and plenty of people, especially those who don't want to lose their freedom simply won't go to the doctor for a diagnosis. Nobody can force someone to see a doctor.

Re: Growing proof that autonomous cars save lives

#650

Post by rglullis »

hobofan wrote: post #642
Symbiote wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that. Copenhagen is littered with electric hire bikes, very often just a few steps from a bike rack with empty spaces. Only one of the companies makes users photograph the bike to show it's been returned to a suitable spot.

Photographing bikes or electric scooters does nothing without enforcement through the city. It allows tracking down the person who placed it wrong, but in the absence of fines through the city, the rental companies surely won't start fining their customers and drive them away.

The Lime app (bikes and scooters) refuses to close down a trip if you enter an area where parking is forbidden or if the picture shows that the vehicle is blocking the sidewalk or pedestrian paths.

It will also 100% forward you a fine if they get one and their records show you were the last user who misplaced it.

Post reply on HN