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The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

arxiv.org

111–119 of 119 posts

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#111
I'm encouraged by this result. It's the primary hypothesis behind latentpedia.org.

Instead of distilling the geometry of a model into a huge knowledge graph, we start from the largest known open source graphs and build it up towards something that resembles this geometry.

Come and join us. Discuss on github.com/latentpedia. We have the basic tech covered. Need more compute, storage and enough business to cover the cost of serving.

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#112
post #53

A big problem with some of these supervised* interpretability approaches is that they can find spurious structure. (There are lots of ways to make the model do what you want; which is roughly what Hewitt and Liang 2019 showed). This paper draws a contrast to a previous method, DAS (distributed alignment search) on page 20. These and related methods rest on theories of causal abstraction, which are great in theory, bu…

So, basically you're saying: I have only skimmed the article, similar approaches had issues in the past, and my own method from my forthcoming paper is better. I mean, no disrespect, but that's the core of your argument, yes?

His arguments apply generally to a large family of interpretability methods. Skimming suffices to figure out that the linked article is in that family.

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#113
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be fair to say that at least a few people can do a small amount of 4d visualisation. Agreed, I don't think anyone has a good grasp on, say, 64K D, but we can do a bit better than just 3.

I’ve heard people claiming that they can but I’ve never heard compelling evidence that they’re directly visualising 4D objects rather than 3D projections of them, or some symbolic representation (arrays of numbers etc.)

What would you regard a trusted demonstration that someone can?

I mean, there are people with aphasia and hyperplasia - how do you prove actual 3D visualisation.

There are games that people play that need 4D visualisation to be able to do well and they perform at that.

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#114
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are disconnected from reality. The whole industry is already completely dominated by LLMs generating code. Bury your head in the sand all you want. This is not about low expectations or inexperience at all. Your condescending tone doesn't make you look smarter, it makes you look like an Amish who expects the industrial revolution is temporary and soon people will come to their senses and stop using all this nonse…

A sidenote, but that is not a typical Amish opinion of technology: "Amish do not view technology as evil, and individuals may petition for acceptance of a particular technology in the local community" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_way_of_life#Use_of_moder... See also https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/how-the-amish-let-technol... about some Amish use of cell phones with adapters to be more payphone/landline-l…

I know that and I am sorry if I offended anyone (would be wild to meet a real Amish here!), but that was the only example I could find that met approximately the behavior of the OP. I thought about ludites as well but that was worse still.

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#115
post #106
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> diminishing these things as 'Next token predictors' seems absurdly reductive. This shows a deep misunderstanding of the paper's claims, which in no way challenge the established view that these bots are next-token predictors. Regardless, if all you want is a next-token selector , save your money and roll a die.

> which in no way challenge the established view that these bots are next-token predictors. I mean, of course they are, that's literally what the inference loop does. You can look at the source of your favorite model runner and you'll see exactly that. What I find misleading about this term is that it focuses attention on the "next token" part and glosses over the "prediction" part as some sort of unspecified "statis…

I've seen nothing to suggest it misleads anyone else.

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#116
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which in no way challenge the established view that these bots are next-token predictors. I mean, of course they are, that's literally what the inference loop does. You can look at the source of your favorite model runner and you'll see exactly that. What I find misleading about this term is that it focuses attention on the "next token" part and glosses over the "prediction" part as some sort of unspecified "statis…

I've seen nothing to suggest it misleads anyone else.

There are other next token prediction algorithms such as markov chains or HMMs that also "fit the same interface", but are vastly simpler than what LLMs use.

I've seen various posters talk about "stochastic parrots" or about how LLMs were just "using very simple word statistics" to get their results, which sounded to me very much as if they thought of LLMs simply as glorified markov chains. I would consider that a big misunderstanding.

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen nothing to suggest it misleads anyone else.

There are other next token prediction algorithms such as markov chains or HMMs that also "fit the same interface", but are vastly simpler than what LLMs use. I've seen various posters talk about "stochastic parrots" or about how LLMs were just "using very simple word statistics" to get their results, which sounded to me very much as if they thought of LLMs simply as glorified markov chains. I would consider that a bi…

No misunderstanding at all.

"In machine learning, the term stochastic parrot is a metaphor that frames large language models as systems that statistically mimic text without real understanding." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_parrot

"Large Language Models as Markov Chains" https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.02724

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#118

A big problem with some of these supervised* interpretability approaches is that they can find spurious structure. (There are lots of ways to make the model do what you want; which is roughly what Hewitt and Liang 2019 showed). This paper draws a contrast to a previous method, DAS (distributed alignment search) on page 20. These and related methods rest on theories of causal abstraction, which are great in theory, bu…

I'm new to the mechanistic interpretability field, but from what I have read insofar, a lot of papers have relied on ablation/causal interventions to prove the faithfulness of their models.

Do you have a simple explanation of why this level of proof is not sufficient?

Re: The Emergent Symbolic Structure of Artificial Neural Networks

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup and the industry is worse than ever. Maybe you forgot that important tidbit? People are using them because they're being shoved down their throats and they're complacent. Software quality, maintainability, exploitability, morale, competency are all at all-time lows and just worsening. It's really bad to defend this.

I spent the last 6 months reviewing all of the AI generated code primarily with gpt 5.3 codex but after I bought the subscription I also used gpt 5.5 and although I was constantly rejecting the bad code and I was mostly happy with the end result. Then they removed the approve everything manually mode and I thought, maybe I'm the one out of touch, I should try vibe coding. I gave it a big spec of things to implement a…

> you spend a lot of time staring at the screen waiting for it to finish

Got annoyed enough at this to build a FOSS tool for it: https://github.com/Roy3838/Observer.

A small local LLM watches your screen and notifies/calls you when the agent finishes or stalls on a prompt :D

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