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GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

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81–90 of 151 posts

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#81

What a clear and well-written article. I have only a basic understanding of LLM architecture and was able to follow along and gain intuition the whole time!

I got to

> I am sure that OpenAI’s GPT-6 Astra is top of mind for everyone right now.

and closed the tab.

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#82
post #18

Astra was insane until Monday but something happened on tuesday, now it feels like Sol. I grieve for the lost productivity but i hope they may give us the original Astra back.

I’m so used to seeing this on every single model release I’m starting to question if these kinds of posts are just trolling.

Alternative theory - it always seems amazing when it first comes out then the novelty wears off and we’re just meh about it. New model is a model is a model. I bought a PS5 Pro and was genuinely blown away by it at first…few weeks later I’m just like…eh it looks pretty good I guess? It’s still the same, I’m just used to it now and the wow factor along a new thing is going. Kinda like that.

Or they are just compute constrained so they have to serve a shittier version. Who knows?

I hate how opaque these companies are. It feels deceptive and evil.

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#83
> I want to prevent a race into unmonitorability kicked off by confused reporting. The depth of the computation graph for our present frontier models, including Astra, is within a factor of two of GPT-4. OpenAI has worked to preserve and utilize chain-of-thought monitoring since our very first reasoning models. We deeply care about this technique, as it can give us a view into how model alignment generalizes from its training distribution. I do think it is fragile and unfortunately trending in a negative direction, for reasons not contingent on architecture changes that I will write about soon. But there are things we can do to strengthen it, and it’s a core goal of our current research program.

- Jakub Pachocki (OpenAI’s Chief Scientist)

I wonder how helpful this actually is for alignment? Didn't we already determine that they know when they're being evaluated, and they just say what they think you want to hear?

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure they quickly move to q8, the output quality difference to bf16 is small compared to the speed/capacity gain

Yeah q8 made so littler difference back when I was testing such things I'd be surprised if people could quickly notice that as a change. It's got to be either further quantized or some other type of optimization that kicks in when people notice the drop.

NVFP4 would buy them a huge increase in capacity but I think it would be noticeable.

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#85
post #71

Anecdatum but I experienced looped cognition on a peculiar combination of substances. I was able to treat thoughts as solid objects and manipulate them iteratively. (Ordinarily they're more like "glimpses" or "flashes" that fade rapidly. So I guess it would be like the mental equivalent of tracers.) I was able to stack thoughts on top of each other, like planks. (I can do something similar or the narrowly but the pla…

> I didn't do any tests unfortunately

That's almost always the problem of course. Wasn't there a quote about the "breakthrough" of "shoes go on feet"?

> manipulate them iteratively. (Ordinarily they're more like "glimpses" or "flashes" that fade rapidly.

This is intriguing. I would describe my normal thought process as iteratively working on a semi-persistent problem held in my mind. Is it different for other people?

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have hard evidence of this assertion?

We can't have hard evidence. It's a SaaS and they own the code and the machine it runs on. So it may be a widespread hallucination. But there's no evidence of that either.

We could still have soft evidence though. Make a Todo app on Monday, and make a Todo app on Tuesday, and see what it makes in comparison.

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little more complicated than that. While looped transformers can be unrolled a fixed number of times to save on memory, if loop depth is determined dynamically between tokens, a single transformer can compute any computable function between tokens. To analogize, current transformers run a fixed-length program per step. Any program can be factored into a top-level loop with a fixed-length branching body (an int…

Actually, removing CoT might make models safer, because we can analyze the entire landscape of their potential outputs, rather than a point-sample (we'll never know how close we were to "kill all humans"). By inspecting intermediate vector spaces, we can actually get certainty bounds on how safely the model is behaving (or even trending). Wrote about it here: https://substack.com/home/post/p-214402969

I don't see why you have to remove CoT to do that?

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#89
post #18

Astra was insane until Monday but something happened on tuesday, now it feels like Sol. I grieve for the lost productivity but i hope they may give us the original Astra back.

>now it feels like Sol

It can very well be Sol, no? What stops them from using cheaper model for some requests during "rush" hours or simply use cheaper model for every Nth request.

Re: GPT-6 Astra, looped transformers, and hidden reasoning

#90
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think they introduce stronger quantization after a few days?

For sure they quickly move to q8, the output quality difference to bf16 is small compared to the speed/capacity gain

Could this explain Opus?
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