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Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

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Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#311

Post by creaturemachine »

jgerrish wrote: post #192
quacked wrote: post #30

I've been very pleased to see the reaction to Flock in the US. I was talking to a younger guy, very normal kid who keeps his nose clean, studying criminal justice in his junior year at college. I jokingly mentioned to him that maybe he could bring some anti-surveillance awareness to whatever law enforcement agency he goes to work for and he said, very seriously, "oh yeah, definitely. I've only gotten two cameras so f…

> I've been very pleased to see the reaction to Flock in the US. I've been involved in civil liberties for over three decades. I was a member of the EFF and ACLU when I could afford it, and follower of the early cypherpunks. Like a lot of EFF members, I was advocating against the Patriot Act a d the methods used to pass it after 9/11. But this feels different. The fact that there is large support feom the left behind…

Are you trying to conflate wildlife tracking and monitoring with this police state dragnet? If so that's a wild take. I'm pretty sure modern wildlife tracking practices are not what's at stake here.

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#313

Post by ExoticPearTree »

bko wrote: post #114
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between ANPR and what Flock does.

Which is... I like how you're so nuanced when I'm pretty sure you never heard the acronym ANPR before

You are right.

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#314

Post by DFHippie »

tmpz22 wrote: post #217
furyg3 wrote: post #46

It's pretty clear to be that governments shouldn't be able to 'subcontract' their way out of the limits placed on them via the constitution. Thankfully the supreme court seems to agree here in two ways: 1) Just because a third party (Google in Chatrie case but Flock here) collects the data and the government requests it from them, doesn't mean that that isn't a 'search' which requires a warrant ("obtaining someone's…

Were pretending we can still have a socratic discussion about this with any consequence. There will be numerous unevidenced accusations about fraud this midterms. It will blanket the internet and air waves. Despite republicans being incredibly nervous about trumps chances these midterms, republicans will win the house and the senate. Trump will reaffirm a supermajority, and policies he decreed will only be expanded.…

> The supreme court will acquisence slowly piece by piece to ever more draconian constitutional violations.

It doesn't seem slow to me.

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#315

Post by philipwhiuk »

jordanb wrote: post #264
furyg3 wrote: post #46

It's pretty clear to be that governments shouldn't be able to 'subcontract' their way out of the limits placed on them via the constitution. Thankfully the supreme court seems to agree here in two ways: 1) Just because a third party (Google in Chatrie case but Flock here) collects the data and the government requests it from them, doesn't mean that that isn't a 'search' which requires a warrant ("obtaining someone's…

The other thing that's going on is that Flock is essentially an always-on "dragnet." A "dragnet" is when you set up police checkpoints everywhere and essentially put entire cities under watch to find a fugitive. This happened in Boston after the bombings. "Dragnets" are illegal except in extreme circumstances (like a bombing). Flock is a "dragnet on demand." You have a digital dragnet in place not just in one city bu…

FISA basically authorises dragnet on demand - it's how XKeyscore operates.

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#316

Post by kbos87 »

goda90 wrote: post #260
kbos87 wrote: post #241

I hate that this has to be an all or nothing conversation. There is a path where technology can deliver benefits without significant harm to individual privacy. San Francisco has turned the tide on smash and grab crime through license plate readers and drone response. New Hampshire requires law enforcement agencies to delete unflagged license plate data within three minutes of collection. These two conditions can exi…

The best deterrent to crime is to make people not want to commit crime in the first place. Education. Social cohesion. Prosperity. Safety nets.

I don’t disagree, but effective enforcement of the law as it is written has to play a role. There is a kernel of truth behind the broken windows theory of policing. When it’s widely known that the law can’t be reliably enforced, crime escalates, and quality of life deteriorates.

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#318

Post by cucumber3732842 »

ryandvm wrote: post #220
furyg3 wrote: post #46

It's pretty clear to be that governments shouldn't be able to 'subcontract' their way out of the limits placed on them via the constitution. Thankfully the supreme court seems to agree here in two ways: 1) Just because a third party (Google in Chatrie case but Flock here) collects the data and the government requests it from them, doesn't mean that that isn't a 'search' which requires a warrant ("obtaining someone's…

I could probably be convinced that some sort of panopticon license plate reader network could be a net positive for society IF it had the necessary and demonstrably infallible audit and oversight systems - especially with respect to the 4th amendment in the United States (i.e. search warrants). But honestly, law enforcement is the least of my concerns because the industrial surveillance complex has shown time and aga…

>. To me, the far more insidious problem is what happens when Flock needs to keep showing growth?

>The possibilities are literally endless:

Zero chance of any of those examples happening when they already have contractual relationships with municipalities they can leverage. They can simply just extend their services to civil enforcement. Follow the concrete trucks and the contractor vans and everything else around with the cameras and drones and then fine everyone for everything. "You were seen wheeling a water heater out of Home Depot. You got a permit for that". "It sure looks like you bought a lot of Henny last time you were in tax free NH, are you sure none of that wound up in your brother's restaurant."

There's already screenshots of "Your 80k registered truck was seen on a road not open to this traffic with no corresponding overweight permit, pay up" mail violations floating around (I have not vetted them).

And unlike price discrimination, the useful idiots will cheer, because the victims will have on paper broken the rules and can be construed as "scofflaws", "antisocial" and "not paying their fair share" even if they have done nothing morally wrong.

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#319

Post by youlosealot »

s_dev wrote: post #248
HNIsEvil2 wrote: post #196

Flock is YC. HN mods are complicit and are shaping the narrative here. PG, Garry Tan, Dan Gackle, Tom Howard, Aaron Epstein, Jared Friedman, and all YC staff are enemies of the people.

I agree YC funding Flock is bad but I don't think you're helping. You're making it seem like there is an orchestrated effort to discredit YC rather than articulating this is poor form on their part.

[flagged]

Re: Flock Wants a Closely Surveilled World with No Exit

#320

Post by baggachipz »

eunos wrote: post #259

Not an American, what made Flock special compared to other surveillance cameras? Informationized or intelligentized surveillances cameras arent a new thing.

The fact that they allow unlimited access to any law enforcement organization, where they can surveil anyone across the entire country. Police have used it to stalk ex-partners, for example. The number of cameras are also an order of magnitude higher. I can't leave my driveway without being tracked.
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