American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals • Hacker News Board

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#111

Post by prostoalex » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 1:29 AM UTC

cglace wrote: post #8

donretag wrote: post #4

The employment problem is precisely why I do not think the housing market will ever "recover". Housing prices did not crash, they simply aligned themselves with current and forecasted salaries. Attempts at raising housing prices to "normal" levels is a fools game. Create the jobs and the salaries first and the rest will follow.

I don't understand why everyone wants housing prices to go up. As a person looking to buy a home in the near future I certainly do not hope the housing prices head towards their prerecession levels.

Economic models suggest greater economic activity around housing booms - it boosts capital flows, job creation, employment for blue-collar workers. That's why "housing starts" is an indicator watched by economists and investors. That's the macro-economic view, and is usually favored by governments, who can create economic waves by tweaking incentives in one industry.

From micro-economic perspective you're right, the cheaper the better, money you save on not paying your mortgage will be deployed somewhere else.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#112

Post by philwelch » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 1:29 AM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #100

ap22213 wrote: post #33

One of the puzzling parts of the current working situation is that the people who are working seem to be putting in way more hours and effort than they used to. What I can't put a finger on is the underlying reason why me and about all of my working friends have almost zero time anymore to do recreational activities, or to spend time with our families and friends. We workers seem all over-burdened with our work. But,…

To your employer, there's no situation that needs alleviation. They're very happy that they can get you to work more hours for the same pay, and even happier that they don't have to pay increasingly costly health benefits for an additional employee when one employee can be made to do the work of two. They obviously don't care that you're suffering. And "no qualified people to hire" is a euphemism for "no qualified pe…

At least in software, salaries are high enough and there's even enough competition on culture that this can't really be the case. Furthermore, it's not actually possible for one employee to do the work of two. There actually is a shortage of qualified people in the world.

The fact is, business has become increasingly more sophisticated and, consequently, difficult over the past several decades. Operations have become increasingly driven by increasingly sophisticated statistical techniques and modeling and much of the drone work has been replaced by computers. In the early days of digital electronics, actual engineers were paid to minimize logical expressions using Boolean algebra or Karnaugh maps. These days we use algorithms and engineers have to solve more difficult problems. If you had the chops to be a white-collar worker at Sears Roebuck corporate in 1960, you don't have nearly the chops required to be a white-collar worker at Amazon corporate in 2012, because there's been half a century of innovation in operations by dozens of firms trying to beat Sears Roebuck.

The end result is that more jobs require numeracy and specialized skills, but if anything there are fewer people with these skills because mathematics requirements were dumbed down to get more people into universities and out with degrees. The stereotypical unemployed Gen-Yner is a liberal arts graduate, and for good reason. The engineers are fine.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#113

Post by mc32 » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 1:40 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

tokenadult wrote: post #3

From the article: "Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last." There have been many postings to Hacker News recently with similar themes. The situation described increasingly looks like the s…

> I support United States policies that move in the direction of east Asian rather than western European patterns of government spending and social welfare This is going to be very difficult to pull off without a massive cultural change. The Confucian influence on East Asian culture has resulted in a much higher degree of filial piety (孝) than in the West, which makes it possible for people to live in old age without…

>The Confucian influence on East Asian culture has resulted in a much higher degree of filial piety (孝) than in the West, which makes it possible for people to live in old age without social welfare.

Kind of an aside, but filial piety tends to break down when there are no children around. With the birthrate in Japan and China this system will break down. It has begun breaking down in Japan (and Taiwan to some extant). For example, all age groups but the one above seniority show declining crime statistics; the older age group shows an increase in crime, mostly petty crime such as food theft, bikes, etc. There is a school of thought which blames elder alienation from society (i.e. no descendants who care for them --or in some cases live just too far)[1]

>the wealthy parents will simply pull their children out of public schools and send them to private schools instead

This is also the case in Japan. On the other hand, in Taiwan, public schools are the better schools. I'm at a loss for the divergence, but would be interested in some insight into that.

>While most people don't mind if their children associate with middle class black and Hispanic children, they certainly don't want them associating with minority children from the ghetto.

Agree with the general statement. That's also evident in Japan and Taiwan, from what I know. It's all socio-economic than racial, in TW and JP, as there are negligible a mounts of "other" in both countries. The Zainichi problems not withstanding.

[1[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/3213349...

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#114

Post by mc32 » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 1:47 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And without the well-off students as their peers in the public schools, the poorer students won't improve, no matter how much money you throw at the situation. I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? I'd love to see data on this one way or the other. While most people don't mind if their children assoc…

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education.

I think this works to some degree, but could depend on ratio. One can't ship underperformers into PaloAlto High or Cupertino and overwhelm the student body --it's not as if the influence is one-way.

>Yes, this is certainly possible, and is the most common argument utilized by the rich parents when faced with charges of racism towards poor blacks and Latinos.

I think looking at homogenous societies (or even states) and looking at achievers vs performers attitudes in those societies. How do parents there deal with these issues? If this argument is used, and those societies are homogenous, then it can't be racist but classist (or even pedagogical).

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#115

Post by HarryHirsch » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 4:12 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #112

greenyoda wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your employer, there's no situation that needs alleviation. They're very happy that they can get you to work more hours for the same pay, and even happier that they don't have to pay increasingly costly health benefits for an additional employee when one employee can be made to do the work of two. They obviously don't care that you're suffering. And "no qualified people to hire" is a euphemism for "no qualified pe…

At least in software, salaries are high enough and there's even enough competition on culture that this can't really be the case. Furthermore, it's not actually possible for one employee to do the work of two. There actually is a shortage of qualified people in the world. The fact is, business has become increasingly more sophisticated and, consequently, difficult over the past several decades. Operations have become…

> The engineers are fine.

Says who? Consider the state of the physical sciences. Employment in physics has been problematic since a long time back, chemistry has suffered from outsourcing to East Asia for ten years, and in biology the pharmco bubble is bursting as we speak.

That leaves computing. It's not that hard to become qualified to B.S., in this very place we see encouragements to drop out of college and "just start a startup". That's not a sustainable model.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#116

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 4:43 AM UTC

Matti wrote: post #108

w1ntermute wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. Sounds like this was done the wrong way around. What percentage of the students at your school were white? You got your ass beat because you were in the minority, and you were in their school. The best way to change behavior is to intimidate the students through intense peer pressu…

"In perhaps the biggest surprise, Armor's studies found that black elementary students who go to magnet schools (which have the highest percentages of whites) score no better on standardized tests than do blacks who go to all-black nonmagnet schools.(97) In short, Armor found that, contrary to the notion on which the whole desegregation plan was founded--that going to school with middle-class whites would increase bl…

First of all, one person's opinion does not make a truth. Second, and more importantly, many of these desegregation programs do not achieve true integration. Sure the black students are in the same school as the white students, but they're not in the same classrooms as the white students who are doing well in their studies. This is exactly what I experienced.

You also have to ask questions like "Are these students receiving extra help to make up for what they aren't getting at home? Do they feel isolated because they're the only poor black student in the class, or do they feel motivated to find a way to fit in with the high-achieving white students?" That is the difference between desegregation and integration.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#117

Post by prostoalex » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 6:49 AM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #91

bmmayer1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. There have been a lot of stories how young people are just a lot less willing to take risks than they used to be. I can tell you for a fact there are wide open $120k jobs in North Dakota and they are desperate for young up-and-comers, but no one wants to move to North Dakota. Older generations just didn't have that privilege. A generation ago, Gen Xers would leave home and move across the country just t…

One wouldn't doubt that there are well-paying jobs in North Dakota, but with a total of 700K people living in the whole state one immediately ask just how many $120K jobs there are, and how many applicants there are for each such job.

He's right http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/28/pf/north_dakota_jobs/index.h... Even liberal arts majors qualify.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#118

Post by philwelch » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 7:33 AM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #115

philwelch wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in software, salaries are high enough and there's even enough competition on culture that this can't really be the case. Furthermore, it's not actually possible for one employee to do the work of two. There actually is a shortage of qualified people in the world. The fact is, business has become increasingly more sophisticated and, consequently, difficult over the past several decades. Operations have become…

> The engineers are fine. Says who? Consider the state of the physical sciences. Employment in physics has been problematic since a long time back, chemistry has suffered from outsourcing to East Asia for ten years, and in biology the pharmco bubble is bursting as we speak. That leaves computing. It's not that hard to become qualified to B.S., in this very place we see encouragements to drop out of college and "just…

You're right that science is problematic, but I said engineering. Engineering tends to be paid for by the market, science tends to be paid for by academia and government, which means employment trends in science are slightly more arbitrary.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#119

Post by Daniel_Newby » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 9:29 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #83

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poor are poor because they have an average IQ in the 80s, barely above mental retardation. Their children are the same way because it is genetic. The school busing amd integration programs are about political subjugation of the high class, not assistance to the lower class.

You're shitting me, right? Please show me the studies you draw upon.

The standard work is The Bell Curve. They studied many thousands of Americans of every race and subculture. They found that the only significant predictor of earned income was IQ. Race, location, parental income, and so forth did not matter (on average). College attendance in particular had little affect on income, it just determined whether the career was in an intellectual-style field.

The school bussing and integration programs were tried starting in the 1960s. No benefits ever materialized, such as improved test scores, imprisonment rates, cumulative earned income by age 30, or any other standard psychology metric.

Yet the programs were continued. Clearly the purpose in continuing them had nothing to do with "disadvantaged" students, because nothing changed for them. The only explanation remaining is that the real purpose was what was being done to the non-disadvantaged students. Their schools were being filled with yahoos to knock down their potential for achievement.

You could dismiss my claim as raving racism except for one thing: you know that at the same time they also introduced word-shape memorization reading instead of phonetics, New Math, eliminated practice drills, and so forth. They really did want to knock down intellectual achievement. School integration fits very nicely into those plans.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#120

Post by Daniel_Newby » Mon, Dec 24, 2012, 9:29 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #80

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poor are poor because they have an average IQ in the 80s, barely above mental retardation. Their children are the same way because it is genetic. The school busing amd integration programs are about political subjugation of the high class, not assistance to the lower class.

Demonstrably untrue and profoundly disturbed.

Demonstrate it then.