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Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

quesma.com

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Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#121

Measuring quality e2e definitely makes sense. But I think there is a bit more to this: > Measuring token prediction differences (KL-divergence, top-1 predictions) is easy, but it does not tell us whether the model gets worse at solving tasks. A common issue is that it's rarely mentioned on which dataset KL-divergence is computed. It seems the most common dataset is wikitext - maybe because of tradition, to make numbe…

> A common issue is that it's rarely mentioned on which dataset KL-divergence is computed. It seems the most common dataset is wikitext

Thank you for calling this out. Using Wikipedia snippets for these is a terrible choice. I did a bunch of KL and other stats with the five Gemma 4 models, and the results were non-obvious. Anthropomorphizing:

Gemma 4 31B: "I guess we'll pretend I said this, but it's not me." (Baseline for stats)

Gemma 4 26B: "Dude, I'm certain I wouldn't have said this." (Bad KL)

Gemma 4 12B: "Umm, Me either!" (Similarly Bad KL)

Gemma 4 E4B: "I might say almost anything, this is fine." (Much better KL!!!)

Gemma 4 E2B: "I'm basically a toy. Let's play a game!" (Same KL as E4B)

Anyway, for comparing quantizations, it seems like the largest precision version should be given a one-shot prompt, and the result from that should be used as the corpus for the quantized versions.

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yah, prediction interval instead, right? (I'm still learning statistics) Saying there's a confidence interval for run-to-run makes no sense, from the way I understand it, because each run could have a result that's all over the place.

Yes. It’s maybe easier to reason about by imagining that we are trying to estimate the parameter of a Gaussian distribution. Let’s say that the “true” distribution of the data has mean μ=100 and standard deviation σ=15, but we don’t know that. 95% confidence interval for μ = “if we repeatedly draw N samples from the true distribution and compute a confidence interval every time, 95% of those intervals will contain μ.…

If 95% of the intervals in your set of intervals include μ, and you randomly pick one of them, in what way is that interval not 95% likely to contain μ? Ignoring the frequentist pedantry that "likelyhood is the wrong word", is there a way for a different number to be the correct number?

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yah, prediction interval instead, right? (I'm still learning statistics) Saying there's a confidence interval for run-to-run makes no sense, from the way I understand it, because each run could have a result that's all over the place.

Yes. It’s maybe easier to reason about by imagining that we are trying to estimate the parameter of a Gaussian distribution. Let’s say that the “true” distribution of the data has mean μ=100 and standard deviation σ=15, but we don’t know that. 95% confidence interval for μ = “if we repeatedly draw N samples from the true distribution and compute a confidence interval every time, 95% of those intervals will contain μ.…

[flagged]

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It’s maybe easier to reason about by imagining that we are trying to estimate the parameter of a Gaussian distribution. Let’s say that the “true” distribution of the data has mean μ=100 and standard deviation σ=15, but we don’t know that. 95% confidence interval for μ = “if we repeatedly draw N samples from the true distribution and compute a confidence interval every time, 95% of those intervals will contain μ.…

If 95% of the intervals in your set of intervals include μ, and you randomly pick one of them, in what way is that interval not 95% likely to contain μ? Ignoring the frequentist pedantry that "likelyhood is the wrong word", is there a way for a different number to be the correct number?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-015-0947-8#...

https://sami.boo/jaynes/confidence-intervals-vs-bayesian-int... (+ Cauchy example below)

It’s like with test accuracy. Test accuracy is the pre-test probability that the test will give a correct result. But once you have a positive or negative result, which way it turned out plays a part in computing the predictive value. Likewise, once you have computed the interval, the specific bounds you ended up getting can affect the plausibility that they contain the true value.

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#125
post #44

hmm, assuming that this article is part written by claude and part human-written, can anyone help me find a rule of thumb for "how to know if the article is worth reading"? Because on the one hand, the prose and the presentation is painful (narrating irrelevant points, nonlinear X-axes, ambiguous chart labels, etc etc), But on the other hand, the result that I'm assuming the author means to communicate ("on these eva…

I wrote this blog post myself, with AI for proofreading (typos and grammar, but not style). There were a few singular sentences for which I had a writer's block, but not much besides that. So, if there are irrelevant remarks, these are mine. :) Charts are vibe-coded - but it took quite a bit of hand-holding to get something decent. And the logarithmic scale for model size is my conscious choice (against Claude's init…

Hi,

If you ever get to writing a blog post about kv cache quantisation, i'm interested in quantising K differently than V

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It’s maybe easier to reason about by imagining that we are trying to estimate the parameter of a Gaussian distribution. Let’s say that the “true” distribution of the data has mean μ=100 and standard deviation σ=15, but we don’t know that. 95% confidence interval for μ = “if we repeatedly draw N samples from the true distribution and compute a confidence interval every time, 95% of those intervals will contain μ.…

> a Jeffreys prior will happen to make it satisfy the definition of a confidence interval as well Correct, which is why it's crazy to consider a Jeffrey's credible interval as valid, but not a confidence interval. Perhaps the confidence interval might not be valid under a frequentist interpretation, but the same math can be valid under a Bayesian interpretation even if the person publishing didn't mean it that way. D…

> Correct, which is why it's crazy to consider a Jeffrey's credible interval as valid, but not a confidence interval.

The confidence interval is “valid” for what its definition is. But:

- saying “there is a 95% chance that this interval contains the true value because it’s a 95% credible interval” is valid;

- saying “there is a 95% chance that this interval contains the true value because it’s a 95% confidence interval” is not.

It’s very much possible to reach a correct conclusion with invalid reasoning. As Jaynes put it:

“As we stress repeatedly, from a false proposition – or from a fallacious argument that leads to a false proposition – all propositions, true and false, may be deduced. But this is just the danger; if fallacious reasoning always led to absurd conclusions, it would be found out at once and corrected. But once an easy, shortcut mode of reasoning has led to a few correct results, almost everybody accepts it; those who try to warn against it are not listened to.”

> Perhaps the confidence interval might not be valid under a frequentist interpretation, but the same math can be valid under a Bayesian interpretation even if the person publishing didn't mean it that way.

Right, but if you get that by happenstance and not from the fact that it’s a confidence interval, the latter isn’t really getting you anything.

Per my first link: “One of the misconceptions regarding the relationship between Bayesian inference and frequentist inference is that they will lead to the same inferences, and hence all confidence intervals can simply be interpreted in a Bayesian way. In the case where data are normally distributed, for instance, there is a particular prior that will lead to a confidence interval that is numerically identical to Bayesian credible intervals computed using the Bayesian posterior (Jeffreys 1961; Lindley 1965). This might lead one to suspect that it does not matter whether one uses confidence procedures or Bayesian procedures. We showed, however, that confidence intervals and credible intervals can disagree markedly. The only way to know that a confidence interval is numerically identical to some credible interval is to prove it. The correspondence cannot — and should not — be assumed. More broadly, the defense of confidence procedures by noting that, in some restricted cases, they numerically correspond to Bayesian procedures is actually no defense at all. One must first choose which confidence procedure, of many, to use; if one is committed to the procedure that allows a Bayesian interpretation, then one’s time is much better spent simply applying Bayesian theory. If the benefits of Bayesian theory are desired — and they clearly are, by proponents of confidence intervals — then there is no reason why Bayesian inference should not be applied in its full generality, rather than using the occasional correspondence with credible intervals as a hand-waving defense of confidence intervals.”

> which is why the credible interval is not some magical better alternative - it's mostly just a choice of how you interpret it

You don’t get to choose to interpret a confidence interval as if it had the meaning of a Bayesian one. If you want to be able to interpret a computed interval as “there is a 95% chance that this interval contains the true parameter value”, only the Bayesian procedure guarantees it, and it can very well produce different numbers. So it is a better alternative in that sense.

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#127

> Second, besides noise (bars are Wilson 95% confidence intervals, very conservative for run-to-run noise), there is little difference down to 4-bit; only the 2-bit scores a bit lower. Confidence intervals have nothing to do with run-to-run variation. They have little to do with anything people usually ascribe to them ( https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-015-0947-8 ), but even less with run-to-run varia…

> The key confusion underlying the FCF is the confusion of what is known before observing the data — that the CI, whatever it will be, has a fixed chance of containing the true value — with what is known after observing the data. Frequentist CI theory says nothing at all about the probability that a particular, observed confidence interval contains the true value; it is either 0 (if the interval does not contain the…

It’s not reaching. See my response here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49622516

> Like saying the probability your uncle died of a shark attack is either 0 or 1.

For a frequentist, it is. If you want the Bayesian interpretation of probability, you must calculate the probability that the interval you ended up getting contains the true value, and you can easily end up with a value different from 95%. You can’t just stop at “it was drawn from a pool of intervals of which 95% contain the true value” since you have more information than that (the numerical bounds).

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#128

Measuring quality e2e definitely makes sense. But I think there is a bit more to this: > Measuring token prediction differences (KL-divergence, top-1 predictions) is easy, but it does not tell us whether the model gets worse at solving tasks. A common issue is that it's rarely mentioned on which dataset KL-divergence is computed. It seems the most common dataset is wikitext - maybe because of tradition, to make numbe…

Before this experiment I tried to run KLD on various context lengths to see a quantization-dependent deterioration.

On wikitext2 there was no difference. I concluded these have no long-term dependency and I should use Linux kernel. Still, the same.

So yes, KLD depends on the dataset. Still, it does not measure what any e2e test does.

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 95% of the intervals in your set of intervals include μ, and you randomly pick one of them, in what way is that interval not 95% likely to contain μ? Ignoring the frequentist pedantry that "likelyhood is the wrong word", is there a way for a different number to be the correct number?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-015-0947-8#... https://sami.boo/jaynes/confidence-intervals-vs-bayesian-int... (+ Cauchy example below) It’s like with test accuracy. Test accuracy is the pre-test probability that the test will give a correct result. But once you have a positive or negative result, which way it turned out plays a part in computing the predictive value. Likewise, once you have computed…

Your first link is just the pedantry. The second link... I don't see any issue for the question I asked? The confidence interval is supposed to be wrong a certain percent of the time. It being so wrong it disproves itself is funny but the 90% is still 90% isn't it? They just landed in a particularly harsh part of the 10%.

The conclusion they come to is "it is possible to do better in the individual case by taking into account evidence from the sample that the confidence interval method throws away". That means the confidence interval is inefficient, not incorrect.

Re: Benchmarking Qwen3.8 27B quantizations: 4-bit holds up, 1-bit collapses

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-015-0947-8#... https://sami.boo/jaynes/confidence-intervals-vs-bayesian-int... (+ Cauchy example below) It’s like with test accuracy. Test accuracy is the pre-test probability that the test will give a correct result. But once you have a positive or negative result, which way it turned out plays a part in computing the predictive value. Likewise, once you have computed…

Your first link is just the pedantry. The second link... I don't see any issue for the question I asked? The confidence interval is supposed to be wrong a certain percent of the time. It being so wrong it disproves itself is funny but the 90% is still 90% isn't it? They just landed in a particularly harsh part of the 10%. The conclusion they come to is "it is possible to do better in the individual case by taking int…

If you just meant it in the sense that “if I pick one interval at random and don’t look at it, it will (future) have an n% chance of containing the true parameter” then sure. It’s a pre-data statement (“I have an n% chance of sampling data that will happen to generate an interval that contains the parameter”).

But once you have picked one, and you know its bounds (say, [12.1471, 13.8264]), then it’s fallacious to make the post-data reasoning that “because it was picked at random from the set of 90% confidence intervals, it has a 90% chance of containing the true parameter”.

Again, it’s like with medical tests. If a test has 90% sensitivity and 90% specificity, it has 90% accuracy (it will, in 90% of cases, produce a result that matches disease status) – a pre-data statement on the test result (/ on the confidence interval that we will compute). But it does not follow that, if you screen an asymptomatic patient with low prior probability of disease and get a positive result, they have a 90% chance of having the disease – a post-data statement on disease status, given the test result (/ on where the parameter lies, given the interval).

> The conclusion they come to is "it is possible to do better in the individual case by taking into account evidence from the sample that the confidence interval method throws away". That means the confidence interval is inefficient, not incorrect.

It means you know in the individual case that the specific confidence interval does not in fact have a 90% chance of containing the parameter.

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