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216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

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Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#991

Post by vineyardmike »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #973
vineyardmike wrote: post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we know better for you so we’ll adjust the behavior accordingly 9/10 times I've used this setting, what I've actually wanted was to temporarily change the behavior. This just saves me from the need to remember to undo it (which I won't remember in a timely manner). This isn't "we know better than you" paternalistic control - the default/easy behavior should cater to the actions and situation we do regularly. I'm su…

It should be symmetrically facile to do both behaviors, assuming there's not an invisible thumb on the scale that wants to procedurally force you to make the choice most in the company's interest. But its not. It is more effortful, more complex, and requires greater care to actually get Wifi and Bluetooth to the OFF state than ON, or ON+CONNECTED. Respectfully, that is backwards, it should be the easiest thing to tur…

> It is more effortful, more complex, and requires greater care to actually get Wifi and Bluetooth to the OFF state than ON, or ON+CONNECTED. Respectfully, that is backwards, it should be the easiest thing to turn something off.

Why?

I get you have some principled opinions or deep belief about tracking or betrayal from corporations or something. That’s nice.

But why should it be easier to do the things that people don’t want to do often instead of the things that people do want to do often?

Good UI makes repeated actions easier than rare actions. That is good UI because it makes the common action easier, conspiracy theory about tracking and fingerprinting be damned.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#992

Post by Obscurity4340 »

bayindirh wrote: post #986
Obscurity4340 wrote: post #969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user expects it to turn off bluetooth or turn off wifi, the backwards way is saying the user presses the toggle and the disclaimer sets not only their expectation but in what I think you're saying, the "reasonable" or logical expectation, which thats not how it works, and its not even logical. There is a toggle showing the Wifi symbol and the bluetooth symbol, you toggle it means you want to turn it on or off, it…

TL;DR: I understand you and your frustrations, but I use Apple devices exactly because of the opinions of it . Not everyone hates these behaviors with a passion of a thousand suns. Long version: We have different expectations from our systems. I personally use Mac laptops as well, and Apple devices use P2P wireless and Bluetooth for so many little things you use everyday, so when I click it and it explicitly prints "…

The issue is its training people to be ok with basically being lied to about what their device does and doesnt do, and hiding things from them that can hurt their own personal interest in favor of the company. Thats backwards but I guess thats the price of convenience people are willing to pay so it all works out I suppose

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#993

Post by Obscurity4340 »

bayindirh wrote: post #986
Obscurity4340 wrote: post #969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user expects it to turn off bluetooth or turn off wifi, the backwards way is saying the user presses the toggle and the disclaimer sets not only their expectation but in what I think you're saying, the "reasonable" or logical expectation, which thats not how it works, and its not even logical. There is a toggle showing the Wifi symbol and the bluetooth symbol, you toggle it means you want to turn it on or off, it…

TL;DR: I understand you and your frustrations, but I use Apple devices exactly because of the opinions of it . Not everyone hates these behaviors with a passion of a thousand suns. Long version: We have different expectations from our systems. I personally use Mac laptops as well, and Apple devices use P2P wireless and Bluetooth for so many little things you use everyday, so when I click it and it explicitly prints "…

Also how do you explain the constant nags to Enable iCloud with the only options being eithet Yes, or Not Now (but we'll bring it up regularly until you say yes)?

Isnt that sort of disrespectful or comtemptuous of the concept of consent? If i dont want something, its a bit weird to force me to keep saying no not now...but yes is forever. Little rapey isnt it? If i want it i will seek it out, its just cynical to not offer a more redpectful permanent no option. Love to hear your thoughts about how im wrong about what i want and bring treated like i only have two contrived choices rather than a true third no option that takes me out of the sales pipeline forseeably

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#994

Post by Obscurity4340 »

ZPrimed wrote: post #988
callc wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully disagree. Toggle buttons have an expected behavior that everyone understands. It should work just like a physical button. I don’t appreciate the “we know better for you so we’ll adjust the behavior accordingly” MITM.

A bunch of the morons out there who turn off wifi out in public because they read some random NYPost article about it "tracking" you, would then be bitching to Apple and/or their cell carriers about why their performance is so bad at home when it doesn't auto-join wifi overnight. I would agree with you that it should operate like a dumb toggle if they didn't have the notification saying that it would auto re-enable a…

So do you agree with it pestering you to enable iCloud if you dont want to and the fact that one of the options "allows" you to delay being asked again to accept something you never want is ok since it has the notification that it will try again later as implied by Not Now (but we'll try it again ad finitum later and circle back until you consent to Yes)?

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#995

Post by 12_throw_away »

judge2020 wrote: post #594
pennomi wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not you iPhone is also doing that is irrelevant. Two surveillance pathways is still inherently worse than one.

Idk, I have a strong feeling Apple is not doing ACR or covert recording themselves, and the OS provides some strong guarantees that you know when the mic is active.

> I have a strong feeling Apple is not doing ACR or covert recording themselves

Feel different™

https://www.reuters.com/legal/apple-pay-95-million-settle-si...

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#996

Post by ikr678 »

FractalParadigm wrote: post #572
godelski wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, the first few minutes of the video suggests it captures your neighbors' device and IP information. I'm sure the ToS has some BS about you being required to inform any guests, but what if your TV is just recording your neighbors because they are close enough? Just wait, I'm sure the "solution" will be that TVs start displaying reminders that you're being recorded... Is our inability to innovate in tech…

Re. The last paragraph, that's what confuses me the most about all of this. LG has virtually held a monopoly of the entire OLED TV market for the past ~15 years, selling (arguably) one of the TVs on the market and being the only thing I've recommended people buy in about as long. They could have done literally nothing but update the hardware every other year with a newer SoC, HDMI version, etc. and done just fine. No…

Maybe the incentive are at the individual level, not the company level. How do you justify your salary/bonus as the TV product team manager by making the same product year in year out? If you have KPI's for new features or cost savings you are going run out of options eventually.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#998

Post by bayindirh »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #993
bayindirh wrote: post #986

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: I understand you and your frustrations, but I use Apple devices exactly because of the opinions of it . Not everyone hates these behaviors with a passion of a thousand suns. Long version: We have different expectations from our systems. I personally use Mac laptops as well, and Apple devices use P2P wireless and Bluetooth for so many little things you use everyday, so when I click it and it explicitly prints "…

Also how do you explain the constant nags to Enable iCloud with the only options being eithet Yes, or Not Now (but we'll bring it up regularly until you say yes)? Isnt that sort of disrespectful or comtemptuous of the concept of consent? If i dont want something, its a bit weird to force me to keep saying no not now...but yes is forever. Little rapey isnt it? If i want it i will seek it out, its just cynical to not o…

> Also how do you explain the constant nags to Enable iCloud with the only options being eithet Yes, or Not Now (but we'll bring it up regularly until you say yes)?

While I find iCloud useful and use it regularly, I don't think nagging people until they break is a good thing to do. I didn't setup a new Apple account or a new Apple device from scratch since forever (I migrate forward so I don't setup anything), so I didn't know that Apple resorted doing that. Sad.

> Love to hear your thoughts about how im wrong about what i want and bring treated like i only have two contrived choices rather than a true third no option that takes me out of the sales pipeline forseeably

Thanks for your prejudice, but I'm not that person you're thinking I am. No offense taken though, but I feel obliged to remind you this: https://xkcd.com/438/

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#999

Post by bayindirh »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #992
bayindirh wrote: post #986

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: I understand you and your frustrations, but I use Apple devices exactly because of the opinions of it . Not everyone hates these behaviors with a passion of a thousand suns. Long version: We have different expectations from our systems. I personally use Mac laptops as well, and Apple devices use P2P wireless and Bluetooth for so many little things you use everyday, so when I click it and it explicitly prints "…

The issue is its training people to be ok with basically being lied to about what their device does and doesnt do, and hiding things from them that can hurt their own personal interest in favor of the company. Thats backwards but I guess thats the price of convenience people are willing to pay so it all works out I suppose

The thing is, there's no lie, but if you want to frame it like that, I won't argue further. A different icon, a clear message on top, more notes in respective settings pages doesn't fit into my framing of lying, to be honest.

You may not like the behavior or design choices of a certain piece of hardware, that's also OK, but labeling behavior as something which is not is wrong IMHO.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#1000

Post by Jolter »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #926
TonyStr wrote: post #897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but only the owner can consent through the TOS. The owner does not collect or process the data, so it's entirely on LG to ensure proper consent, not the owner. Breaking a TOS is not a crime, and can only be punished by restricting or disallowing access to a service, but collecting personal data without consent is a huge problem in the EU.

It’s clearly unreasonable to assume that LG can know and procure consent from everyone you choose to allow into your living room. It’s reasonable to push the burden of procuring that consent onto whoever controls entry to the space, with terms like this. As a thought experiment, let’s take a service like Zoom where you can record video of participants. It’s reasonable to say “you’re operating the camera, if someone a…

> It’s reasonable to push the burden of procuring that consent onto whoever controls entry to the space, with terms like this.

I don’t agree. I think if consent can’t be obtained, the only reasonable action here is to not collect the information.

The comparison to a zoom meeting is not 100% because if you’re walking past such a camera, you’re pretty likely to notice it and have the option to not step into view or obscure your face.

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