The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment • Hacker News Board

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#101

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Tue, Sep 08, 2026, 10:52 PM UTC

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #61

atq2119 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the immigration issue that clearly is forefront on the minds of such AFD voters, Let's be real: this "issue" is a strawman. It doesn't really exist, especially in that part of Germany. Just like pretty much everywhere else, the German anti-immigrant far right is strongest in the areas with the fewest immigrants. This is not to say that the wave of immigration that is now more than 10 years past didn't have its chal…

> Let's be real: this "issue" is a strawman. It doesn't really exist, especially in that part of Germany. Just like pretty much everywhere else, the German anti-immigrant far right is strongest in the areas with the fewest immigrants This is not a strawman. Even if you believe that the AFD is not correct in its diagnosis of the problems, why are you saying something that is a complete lie: https://www.infomigrants.ne…

20% of people in Germany were born abroad. A good share of them have naturalized and are now German citizens. The top countries of origin are Poland, Turkey and Ukraine.

Very few of them go to Saxony-Anhalt. Less than 10% of the population of the state is foreign-born. As GP said, anti-immigrant sentiment is strongest where there are the fewest immigrants.

> But I guess its easier to think that 44% of the inhabitants of Saxony-Anhalt are secretly Nazies

People have a hard time imagining that any person ever voted for the Nazis. 37% of Germans did. It's entirely possible for large parts of the population to vote for fascist parties. It has happened in history before.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#102

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 12:18 AM UTC

cyberpunk wrote: post #20

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being told they're all nazis (I'm sure some of them are, but nowhere near all) Many of their senior leaders are Nazis. The head of the party in the state of Thuringia used to write pro-Hitler articles under a pseudonym. > ignoring and belittling a large group and ignoring their concerns entirely The AfD doesn't address their problems either. It tells them that all of their problems are because of foreigners and imm…

Right, I agree. But what makes people vote for this kind of stuff? It's not like 44% of saxon-anhalt just wakes up overnight and decides "Hey, you know what...". I think it must grow over years of their feelings/opinions being ignored. My only point was that, perhaps, we should think about these causes and why the core political parties can't solve them; otherwise it's only going to get worse -- hell at this rate the…

The fall of East Germany, which led to mass unemployment in the East (including Saxony-Anhalt).

The Thatcher-Reagan-style reforms that the Social Democrats and Greens pushed through in the early 2000s, which reduced the social safety net and created new types of less-secure temporary work. In particular, these reforms ended the Social Democrats as a mass party in Germany.

The 2008 financial crisis, which weighed heavily on Europe for years.

The rise in inflation, caused by Covid and wars in Ukraine and Iran.

As in the 1930s, right-wing parties blame everything on immigrants, foreigners and minorities, even though they're not responsible for any of the above.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#103

Post by belorn » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 12:19 AM UTC

dinfinity wrote: post #94

sajithdilshan wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Berlin and have experienced and living it. I have experienced how much I have to pay extra for groceries, utilities, heating and rent. I have seen how the public transportation has degraded even though the ticket prices are increasing. I have experienced how the take home salary has decreased even over the last 3 years. I have experienced how difficult it is just to get an appointment for a doctor even thou…

That was not the question. You have not tried, clearly. This is about gaining insight into what parts of your tax contribution pay for what exactly . > I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. So what's the solution to improving your experience, pay less in taxes or more? Don't add conditions. Remember that this…

The German government is responsible for making itself and its citizens wellbeing dependent on cheap natural gas/oil. It was German politicians that drove the classification of making natural gas "green" in EU, and it was their investments into fossil fuel infrastructure that enabled and encourage the industry to focus on products that utilized those cheap fossil fuels. They betted their economy on a world where cheap natural gas produced prosperity, and that bet fell apart when those wars started.

Germany is thus paying the price for those failed investments, as is any country which energy market is connected to the German market. It is natural for voters to look to the government for a solution for a problem that the government is responsible for.

If history had gone a different direction and kept natural gas prices low, the bet that the government did would had been successful and people would likely had a very different view of the government. People would had enjoyed one of the cheapest electricity prices of the world, burners would be cheaper than electric heaters, and the chemical industry would possible be the biggest in the world. Emissions would still be high but the bet was always to utilize natural gas until green hydrogen could replace it, even if that part of the bet had dubious scientific support).

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#104

Post by customguy » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 12:42 AM UTC

majorchord wrote: post #97

customguy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving them an opportunity to speak on immigration by handling it so badly. If I don't put out a fire, you can come along and suggest pouring kerosene on it, and if I handle shit badly enough, people might say hey, why not. But if I put the fire out while you're still a toddler, what can you do? Suggest to start a fire and pour kerosene on it? > to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone war…

What is harmless about telling people they shouldn't have a right to speak?

Nobody said that, as I just explained to you.

You putting words into the mouth of others is not you speaking, it's you making noises to drown out the speech of others. So fuck this pretense of caring for free speech. You are what you do.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#105

Post by dinfinity » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 2:15 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #103

dinfinity wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not the question. You have not tried, clearly. This is about gaining insight into what parts of your tax contribution pay for what exactly . > I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. So what's the solution to improving your experience, pay less in taxes or more? Don't add conditions. Remember that this…

The German government is responsible for making itself and its citizens wellbeing dependent on cheap natural gas/oil. It was German politicians that drove the classification of making natural gas "green" in EU, and it was their investments into fossil fuel infrastructure that enabled and encourage the industry to focus on products that utilized those cheap fossil fuels. They betted their economy on a world where chea…

I think the goal was at least in part explicitly to increase economic integration with newly democratic Russia in a(n apparently vain) attempt to prevent war.

The actions of Russia (and now the USA and Israel) really fucked a lot of countries all across the world; particular policies with regard to energy do have an effect, but are definitely not 100% the cause of the related issues.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#106

Post by beej71 » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 2:57 AM UTC

balarjin wrote: post #44

NikolaNovak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a trick question though, and it cunningly pre-supposes / takes-for-granted there IS an "immigration problem", and implicitly that "the immigration problem is the root cause of other problems" (as opposed to, "there are real problems, and some people would like you to think they're because of immigration").

Fair enough, it should be asked in a neutral way. "Voters perceive problems. As is common in a democracy, voters elect people who propose solutions. Why is no other political party proposing solutions voters see as worth voting for?" If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. As far as I can tell, other political parties have no better answer than name-calling. Am I missing some politician…

> If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters.

Let's say we could demonstrate the problems aren't real beyond any shadow of a doubt. Do you think that would change votes appreciably?

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#107

Post by frm88 » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 4:22 AM UTC

r_lee wrote: post #27

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being told they're all nazis (I'm sure some of them are, but nowhere near all) Many of their senior leaders are Nazis. The head of the party in the state of Thuringia used to write pro-Hitler articles under a pseudonym. > ignoring and belittling a large group and ignoring their concerns entirely The AfD doesn't address their problems either. It tells them that all of their problems are because of foreigners and imm…

there's clearly been a problem with migrants, why did no party address these issues? if you could make them powerless by just addressing the issue, why have no parties done that? why hand power to the AfD?

There has been a big problem with migrants in the syrian civil war, most of which are gone again.

Without immigrants the ageing German population has no chance to keep their social safety net and as we see in the US, even when the social safety net is significantly reduced, the immigrant scarecrow will still have the desired effect for the populists because the immigrants are not the problem, they make, however a phenomenal scapegoat and will always appeal to the general populace. In consequence, focussing solely on immigration won't solve the fundamental problems and certainly won't help when the first waves of hungry climate refugees march north.

The consequences are border tightening and rearming and repopulating the military and marching confidently in the completely wrong direction. Dialog is dead and so is diplomacy.

Re-establish communication, not twitter. Collaborate on a wide front, analyse the data, compile potential solutions, discuss them, etablish them. Talk to Russia, talk to Ukraine, Defang NATO or abolish it. Talk to Iran. Stop the US propagating pseudo diplomacy via Kushner and send real diplomats. Look to invest in R&D for recycling techniques, carbon sequestering, substitutes for plastics, redirect military funding to massively expand renewable energy. Close all European borders the next time the US starts a war. There is so much to do.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#108

Post by soco » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 10:24 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #103

dinfinity wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not the question. You have not tried, clearly. This is about gaining insight into what parts of your tax contribution pay for what exactly . > I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. So what's the solution to improving your experience, pay less in taxes or more? Don't add conditions. Remember that this…

The German government is responsible for making itself and its citizens wellbeing dependent on cheap natural gas/oil. It was German politicians that drove the classification of making natural gas "green" in EU, and it was their investments into fossil fuel infrastructure that enabled and encourage the industry to focus on products that utilized those cheap fossil fuels. They betted their economy on a world where chea…

I must underline, the winning wave of the rightwing peddle on increasing this dependency to cheap russian energy even more, while they're also criticizing Merkel and the others for building a dependency to cheap russian energy. Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but it's mind boggling.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#109

Post by belorn » Wed, Sep 09, 2026, 3:26 PM UTC

soco wrote: post #108

belorn wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German government is responsible for making itself and its citizens wellbeing dependent on cheap natural gas/oil. It was German politicians that drove the classification of making natural gas "green" in EU, and it was their investments into fossil fuel infrastructure that enabled and encourage the industry to focus on products that utilized those cheap fossil fuels. They betted their economy on a world where chea…

I must underline, the winning wave of the rightwing peddle on increasing this dependency to cheap russian energy even more, while they're also criticizing Merkel and the others for building a dependency to cheap russian energy. Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but it's mind boggling.

That is part of the irony, but also the best explanation I got for why the election results are as they are. This is a political situation that the leading parties worked to create in the last few decades, and the dissatisfaction of the situation is one that feeds into populist movements.

CDU and the green could had done a 180 turn now when the bet on natural gas failed, and instead gone on a course for energy independence through a mix of nuclear, wind and solar, while investing heavily into making it as cheap as possible for the consumers. They would loose a lot of internal support, but it would demonstrate a clear alternative to the bet on natural gas.