Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes and no. We used to have rampant script kiddies back in the '90s and early 2000s. After 2005-ish, well maybe 2010, most systems became adequate enough to not trust users' input, bug bounties, security as a separate role, etc, etc. It would take at least some knowledge to hack, not just a random script from a forum. Now, with LLMs, it's the '90s all over again.
Whilst true, security will improve rapidly again. Potentially via AI, potentially via other technologies. If its easy enough to find exploits, its likely similarly easy to scan code for exploits, or use AI-based anti-virus technologies. The only thing holding us back is the cost of compute. We can't all run the latest models against everything.
Trusting-Trust Attack against an Entire Linux Distribution
61–65 of 65 posts
Re: Trusting-Trust Attack against an Entire Linux Distribution
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
but now they will via delegation to an automated analyst/systems programmer. get ready. the effort required for a complete infiltration has been lowered a great deal.
This automated analyst isn't going to be able to run usefully on hardware that is still otherwise useful, giving you a clear path to choke it out or identify its presence when your hello world is taking 3 months to finish compiling.
simple single bit changes are enough to blast your private keys out to the ether of the public facing internet.
that big fat LLM does know how to make tentacles and eyes.
Re: Trusting-Trust Attack against an Entire Linux Distribution
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
This automated analyst isn't going to be able to run usefully on hardware that is still otherwise useful, giving you a clear path to choke it out or identify its presence when your hello world is taking 3 months to finish compiling.
insertions can be much smaller than full blown LLMs. simple single bit changes are enough to blast your private keys out to the ether of the public facing internet. that big fat LLM does know how to make tentacles and eyes.
Re: Trusting-Trust Attack against an Entire Linux Distribution
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
insertions can be much smaller than full blown LLMs. simple single bit changes are enough to blast your private keys out to the ether of the public facing internet. that big fat LLM does know how to make tentacles and eyes.
Absolutely true, but even tentacles and eyes will struggle to fit in a system compact enough. Even on larger systems, there is an upper limit on how many tentacles you can cram in something before you can't continue the facade that there are none. And an upper limit on how esoteric the tentacle is before it stops being worth it.
Re: Trusting-Trust Attack against an Entire Linux Distribution
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
The paper is not about implementing a general attack that works on all trusting-trust mitigations. It is precisely about showing that you can still propagate backdoored code if the compromised binary in your seed is NOT the compiler.
>The paper is not about implementing a general attack that works on all trusting-trust mitigations. Then why have section 7.3 'Bootstrappable Builds', that briefly surveys a type of trusting-trust mitigation, and concludes that their method "sustains the attack [...], even after the compiler seed shrinks to a few hundred bytes"? >It is precisely about showing that you can still propagate backdoored code if the compro…
GUIX is unconfortable about that, but as they name the current process "full source bootstrap" implicitly consider this unaudited execution environment out-of-scope and more of an academic blemish, rather than a real problem: https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-...
After all you rebuild it together with the world immediately after compiler bootstrap is done. And the utilities in your execution environment do not process the compiler source, so this dependency cannot be a problem, right?
The paper precisely addresses this. You cannot handwave away your shell or ELF utilities. They can sustain an attack just like the compiler.
> "[For demonstration purposes], I picked on the C compiler. I could have picked on any program-handling program such as an assembler, a loader, or even hardware microcode."
This is precisely the problem that most people dealing with OPSEC have.
If you get "paranoid enough", your threat model always collapses into an unactionable mess where everything is just toast and your only solution is to quit computing and start doing woodwork or something.
If everything is potentially compromised then of course the results from the paper become obvious. If your environment is compromised, don't trust its output, duh!
If you want to quantify though, under which assumptions, "how much" your environment can be broken without compromising its output, the paper has value. And it seems like real attempts of bootstrapping binaries actually missed a spot.