Bubeck's statement https://xcancel.com/SebastienBubeck/status/20973794116915163...
Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
321–330 of 862 posts
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
please could you change 'drama' and 'accusation' to something more formal like 'allegation'. the paper makes a very serious allegation of dishonesty and possible academic misconduct. the governance and integrity of openai is of importance to the welfare of society. this is not a matter of drama.
The [lack of] integrity of OpenAI (and any other frontier lab) should already be pretty solidified. Among other horrible things, these companies stole millions of IPs and no one seems to care anymore. Regardless of what you think of the product they are making and the success of ai/its impact on humanity, these companies objectively do not have much integrity.
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Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#323Drama/accusation summary: - Aug 15th: Tristan Buckmaster & Levent Alpöge make progress on a few important math problems, "finite-time blowup with smooth forcing for incompressible porous media, for Boussinesq, and for 3d incompressible Euler." - they do NOT have a proof for the $1,000,000 Millenium Prize problem. BUT, they do claim to have a proof for a similar (non-Millenium) Navier Stokes problem that could help le…
In other words...they should have used Bedrock...
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
The [lack of] integrity of OpenAI (and any other frontier lab) should already be pretty solidified. Among other horrible things, these companies stole millions of IPs and no one seems to care anymore. Regardless of what you think of the product they are making and the success of ai/its impact on humanity, these companies objectively do not have much integrity.
How do you feel about the integrity of the machine learning researchers over the past twenty years who trained models on scraped internet data that weren't particularly powerful and didn't attract any attention?
i think that this case, if they did train on buckmaster and alpöge, amounts to an attempt to steal the millenium prize, bypassing all attribution.
legally speaking, the default privacy notice gives them an irrevocable license to your content. they may read and use the prompts for research. so it is very possible they simply stole the navier-stokes solution.
that is the same principle as any other prompt but this would be a concrete example.
there would be some difference between simply giving the model some prompts to read, which they are entitled to do on the default policy, and putting it into aggregate training data.
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
The [lack of] integrity of OpenAI (and any other frontier lab) should already be pretty solidified. Among other horrible things, these companies stole millions of IPs and no one seems to care anymore. Regardless of what you think of the product they are making and the success of ai/its impact on humanity, these companies objectively do not have much integrity.
How do you feel about the integrity of the machine learning researchers over the past twenty years who trained models on scraped internet data that weren't particularly powerful and didn't attract any attention?
If they scraped internet data in the same way as current day frontier labs do, then I feel the same exact way about them. Why would I feel any different if that is the case?
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#326Drama/accusation summary: - Aug 15th: Tristan Buckmaster & Levent Alpöge make progress on a few important math problems, "finite-time blowup with smooth forcing for incompressible porous media, for Boussinesq, and for 3d incompressible Euler." - they do NOT have a proof for the $1,000,000 Millenium Prize problem. BUT, they do claim to have a proof for a similar (non-Millenium) Navier Stokes problem that could help le…
Thanks. I was pinging some people near the mentioned Córdoba to see if they had any insights, but no extra info yet...
You should call El Niño, he lives close to the Mexican border and is at home after 6...
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's specifically the last two bullet poitns - Tristan is suspicious of the timing, as only few others were trying this approach. OpenAI says the model didn't access his user data directly, but leaves unanswered whether Tristan's chat conversations were part of the training. - OpenAI says they would partially credit Tristan for the $1,000,000 discovery (even though Tristan did not solve the $1,000,000 problem) — but…
>After hearing of the rumor, OpenAI started researching Navier Stokes with a new internal model. This is the most suspicious thing to me. If their chat data were available to the corpus to be trained on (I thought they claimed not to do this?) then it really might be as simple as querying the model with "describe recent work from Tristan Buckmaster" and it will spit out this problem and his approach. No need to direc…
OAI doesn't need to mention Buckmaster's name directly in a prompt. They just need to select a basket of sessions that is guaranteed to contain Buckmaster's and then direct the LLM to attack only a specific method/angle. This is trivial to do while maintaining plausible deniability about not using his work.
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#328Drama/accusation summary: - Aug 15th: Tristan Buckmaster & Levent Alpöge make progress on a few important math problems, "finite-time blowup with smooth forcing for incompressible porous media, for Boussinesq, and for 3d incompressible Euler." - they do NOT have a proof for the $1,000,000 Millenium Prize problem. BUT, they do claim to have a proof for a similar (non-Millenium) Navier Stokes problem that could help le…
But Tristan doesn't even want to be credited for the millennium prize--does he? He wanted to be the first to solve it and got scooped (which ig is not a great look for OAI ethically but also not forbidden). And the only reading for her of asking to remove levent must be in light of this offer (to credit him for millennium prize) right? It's not like they can ask him to remove levent from the main papers without this…
my reading was that openai did not deny plagiarising the approach from their prompts.
openai then tried to effectively bribe buckmaster with a shared citation, whilst dropping his co-author who works for anthropic.
after buckmaster refused, openai tried to threaten him.
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's specifically the last two bullet poitns - Tristan is suspicious of the timing, as only few others were trying this approach. OpenAI says the model didn't access his user data directly, but leaves unanswered whether Tristan's chat conversations were part of the training. - OpenAI says they would partially credit Tristan for the $1,000,000 discovery (even though Tristan did not solve the $1,000,000 problem) — but…
I think it's very unlikely that Tristan is making up these quotes, or pulling them out of context: > I said that if OpenAI released its result in the way proposed I would go public with what happened. The reply was, “Why would you ruin your career?” I replied that I am an academic, and asked why he thought going public would ruin my career. The reply was, “If you don’t want me to be nice, then I don’t have to be nice…
>I said that if OpenAI released its result in the way proposed I would go public with what happened. The reply was, “Why would you ruin your career?” I replied that I am an academic, and asked why he thought going public would ruin my career. The reply was, “If you don’t want me to be nice, then I don’t have to be nice.”
If this is true he should release the actual emails. This is a very serious accusation and he shouldn't demand that the reader judge it on hearsay.
Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure what your points 1 and 2 have to do with anything. Both directionally increase the probability of hyperscalers also finding the solution independently. > Those hyperscalers repeatedly show themselves not to take user privacy seriously where? Any examples?
Have you been living under a rock? None of the big tech companies care one bit about user privacy in the US.
That's not an answer.