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On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

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Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#161
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre-IPO marketing?

I'm so tired of this "It's just marketing!!" commentary. An AI model just proved one of the top 3 unsolved problems in mathematics, they have a Lean certificate showing it's valid. How much more evidence do you need that these models are actually highly capable?

They are highly capable, no doubt about that, but:

1) We don't really know how they arrived to this result except that they had a lead and that they threw millions of compute at the problem. The article is written in a way that makes you believe that it was just an agent loop with little human intervention, but without any evidence.

2) If the threats are to be believed, it is concerning how far they are willing to go to show how capable the model is. One would think their products and credibility would be enough to speak for themselves.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#162
post #36

Does seem like they gloss over Alpöge and Buckmaster's work with the following > While unlikely, we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models . Which seems a bit irresponsible/rash?

"Unlikely" lmao if it's in the corpus, it's gonna be brought up immediately. This is no different than scooping them.

Research equivalent of front-running.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are saying OpenAI "stole" this from the work of an OpenAI user. If so, that's pretty fucked - how can we trust them? The said user (Tristan Buckmaster) didn't solve the millennium problem. He didn't really accuse that OpenAI stole his research either. The beef came from the fact OpenAI asked him to remove another mathematician, who works for Anthropic, from the credit. "People" are just misinformed and keep…

Have you read the actual statement https://cims.nyu.edu/~tristanb/statement.pdf ? > I should say here why I interpreted their statement the way I did, the in- terpretation I will discuss below. The route to the Clay problem through a smooth force, options c and d in Fefferman’s statement of the problem, is the route Luis and Diego opened and the one Levent and I had quietly chosen to attack. Almost nobody else I know…

Yes, I read the original statement. Buckmaster explicitly stated:

> I have not seen OpenAI’s proof. I do not know what their model did, or how. I do not know whether our data was used. I am not accusing anyone of anything.

People saying that he accuses OpenAI stole his proof are putting words into his mouth and I consider that very disrespectful to him. It's basically using Buckmaster as a tool to express their dissatisfaction over OpenAI.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#164

Buried under the drama is the fact that OpenAI is claiming that an internal model they’ve been training for less than two weeks is more than twice as capable in mathematics as Astra, which was only made public a week ago. Even if this improvement is limited to mathematics, that is an astounding feat.

Pre-IPO marketing?

If pre-ipo marketing pushes them to train a model capable of resolving a millennium problem in mathematics in a weekend, then, to quote XKCD:

  "Mission. Fucking. Acccomplished."

https://xkcd.com/810/

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Anthropic employee even use OpenAI's models? Cross-polination would have been avoided

They should have used a zero data retention agreement, user error

I suspect this controversy will blow the case for ZDR wide open. Whatever the facts (possibly unknowable), it's going to become a very public lesson that data sovereignty was never about "having nothing to hide".

If this is what they do to academic pure mathematicians, where the stakes are so low (financially)—just imagine the sort of front-running that could be happening in other places.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#166
There's a loophole in the terms of service at least for Anthropic which allows the use of dark patterns to "borrow" your (even paid) data.

talking about this... Was this chat helpful? 1 That button you always click, gotcha! 2 Slightly 3 Good 0 Dismiss

PLEASE DO NOT TRAIN ON OUR PAID ACCOUNTS. There is a fundamental trust violation at stake here, no wonder mathematicians are mad. Using our data should be opt - IN!

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#167
post #95

"we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models ." What a landmine sentence to bury in this report, you can't rule out your models were spying on other researchers?

If they had agreed to let OpenAI train on their data, it wouldn’t be spying.

[deleted]

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#168
post #50

It seems like some other mathematicians (not affiliated with openAI) have also (or close to) done this. A statement was posted about the surrounding events by one of the them: https://cims.nyu.edu/%7Etristanb/statement.pdf Also Terrence Tao's post: https://mathstodon.xyz/@tao/117233528517340774

To my understanding, those mathematicians proved a subset of problems, not the Navier-Stokes problem itself. OpenAI used that subproblem in its proof of NS it seems. The drama comes from where OpenAI got the idea to use that route to tackle NS, since the authors maintain that no one could have plucked it out of thin air like the OpenAI research claim to have done.

This quote from Tao is prescient:

“ There does not seem to be anything in principle preventing the methods from extending all the way to Navier-Stokes, and there is even a non-negligible chance that the forcing term could be eliminated entirely, although there are an enormous number of technical difficulties that would ensue in implementing that program. At this point, I would not be surprised if one could batter out such an extension by pouring an enormous amount of compute and AI assistance at such a task…”

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#169
So the timeline is:

Aug 28: OpenAI starts training a new model.

Sep 1: OpenAI sees a rumor on Twitter that two Millenium Prize problems were solved and starts their own effort to attack all the prize problems using the new (4 day old!) model.

Sep 3: The new model makes some progress toward Navier-Stokes. Based on this progress, OpenAI focuses on Navier-Stokes over the other Millenium Prize problems, using several approaches in parallel.

Sep 5: Navier-Stokes is solved. Assuming Astra API prices, $15m in output tokens were used by the whole effort.

In this account of the story, no specific information about Tristan and Levent's work is used to inform OpenAI's approach. The focus on Navier-Stokes and the choice of approaches to pursue came from OpenAI's own progress, not specific knowledge of Tristan's concurrent work.

There is a caveat that they "can't rule out" the possibility that Tristan's Codex data could have been part of the training set of the new model, though it is described as "unlikely" and the proofs are substantially different.

This timeline is insane. Navier-Stokes was solved start-to-finish in 5 days? A model in training for at most eight days dramatically outperforms Astra and Fable, and not just in mathematics?

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#170
post #62

> A major goal of our work is to empower scientists to advance research and technology that benefits all of humanity. And what's a better way of empowering people than robbing them.

[flagged]

Since you are a very new account, allow me to inform you that copy-pasting the same comment throughout the thread is very bad form.
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