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The Sex Tape Litmus Test

laverick.org

91–100 of 138 posts

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#91
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employment contracts are almost always written to supply as many benefits to the employer and mitigate as many risks as possible. The worst case scenario for them is that they find out that certain clauses are not enforceable. In reality I imagine it is often known that some may be unenforceable but they are added anyway on the basis that the employee doesn't know this.

In GA the constitution USED to be written such that unenforceable contracts, especially unenforceable employment contracts, were void in their entirety. They sadly passed an amendment to remove that :O(

Is GA something to do with a US state?

Please spell these things out in full. It's only a few extra characters and it helps the rest of us pretend this site is global.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#92
post #54

Note. The contract, as described , would not hold for California employees. See http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&#3... if you don't know what I'm talking about. (That said, Sony probably does enough different things that the difference does not matter much to most people.)

In California the contract is often modified to include something like "except where prohibited by law" which means that the company gets IP assignment any time that 2870 doesn't apply.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#93
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective bargaining rights was developed to counter exactly this power imbalance with minimum government involvement. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any programmer unions.

What's odd to me is that in many cases people who purport to be "pro free market" are also anti-union. As far as I can see, unions are the free market.

Unions are actually cartels.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#94

California has a nice law that says that the employee owns IP created on his own time, unrelated to work, etc. This is a reason I moved to CA: the state I was in lacked such a law, and all the tech companies had contracts that failed the sex tape test. I suspect that for a place to flourish like Silicon Valley, it needs a law that protects self bootstrapping startups.

California law only seems different to other states. In practice, it's much the same.

Engineers often misinterpret the provisions of the law.

" (1) Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer; or (2) Result from any work performed by the employee for the employer."

#1 is pretty vague, and it has been interpreted broadly by most courts. Almost every engineer i've talked to think it means "unrelated to the work i'm doing for the employer" (which is really part #2 of the law). However, it in fact says that not just "work related to stuff you are doing for your employer", but "work related to stuff your employer does at all or has said they will probably do in the future" can be owned by the employer, even in your spare time.

So if you work for a company that does a lot of things, you should not expect to own anything.

In practice, this is not very different from the laws of most states.

While I am a lawyer, this is not legal advice. Just trying to correct a misconception.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#96
post #45
post #3

The primary function of a legal department is to provide advice that prevents legally actionable mistakes. This advice does not have to be sane, or efficient, or indeed have any consideration towards the interests of the company other than "prevents legally actionable mistakes". A few days ago HN saw an article about setting goals and perverse incentives. This is a simple example. Hypothetically, someone was reviewin…

> The primary function of a legal department is to provide advice that prevents legally actionable mistakes. This advice does not have to be sane, or efficient, (...) Strong disagreement. As a counterport, would you agree to the following: ``the primary function of a programming department is to crank out code. the code doesn't have to run predictably, nor be maintainable nor indeed have any business requirements. KL…

the primary function of a programming department is to crank out code

OP didn't say the primary function of the legal department was to crank out legal language. He does say their job is to crank out advice that "prevents legally actionable mistakes".

Similarly, I think most developers at core are expected to output code that fulfill some communicated requirement.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#97
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unions tend to erode meritocratic systems of > compensation and advancement If such meritocratic systems exist, the awards are only dependent on the merits of your corporate politicking skills.

Let's say you are a tech worker in silicon valley. Your wages and the sorts of jobs you have access to are dependent on the sorts of companies in existence, their needs, and your skillset. If you have a highly sought after skillset then you will be courted by multiple companies who will try to woo you with jobs that you find desirable and competitive compensation packages. Let's say instead you are a dock worker in l…

Very few unions have a mandatory favored nations policy. If you were significantly better at dock workering, such that a company sought you out, they can easily pay you more. That being said, many union labor positions don't have a wild variety of skillsets. They often do need protection.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#98
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At issue is the part "laws enforcing a requirement." I'm hard pressed to think of any advocate of a free market who wants this law in place. But a closed shop arose not from legal statute but by an agreement between the company and the union. There's no need for government involvement, except to settle contract disagreement. In fact, it's quite the opposite! Closed shops are illegal in the US, under Taft-Hartley Act,…

The question to the audience is, shouldn't a free market advocate want to reduce both the laws which give unions specific power AND those which take power away from unions? Yes. I'd love to scrap all laws relating to unions and have the law treat them as worker-owned consulting companies. Is an employer a sort of monopolist? I believe they are. While there are exceptions (IT in the Bay Area during the dot-com era bei…

"worker-owned consulting companies"

There are many organizational forms. I wouldn't choose a company. It should be a cooperative, as described at http://www.sba.gov/content/cooperative . "Not all cooperatives are incorporated, though many choose to do so." And "Democracy is a defining element of cooperatives. The democratic structure of a cooperative ensures that it serves its members' needs."

"Can you explain this claim? What prevents any employee from leaving and selling their labor to another willing party?"

Sure. You mentioned Keynesians. Quoting the Wikipedia section about cyclical/Keynesian unemployment: "With cyclical unemployment, the number of unemployed workers exceeds the number of job vacancies, so that even if full employment were attained and all open jobs were filled, some workers would still remain unemployed."

In that scenario, there are few willing parties to sell one's labor to. How is that not structurally similar to a monopoly? An employer in that situation can abuse their monopoly power, and take advantage that the switching costs for the employee to get another job are so high. In short "you take a 5% cut in pay or I fire you and hire the next person who walks in that door." It doesn't even need to be said: "you will take a 5% cut in pay" implies "or you'll have to quit and find another job."

We don't need to be in a Great Depression for that to happen. Or do you think the 2009-2010 spike to 14% unemployment rate for Michigan was all due to people deciding to stay unemployed while holding out for higher paying work?

Using a similar calculus to your model, the switching cost for an employee includes [1] the difficulty of finding a nearby job, or moving and feeling uprooted (and finding new schools, new job for the spouse, etc.), [2] potentially being called a 'complainer' or 'quitter' or labeled 'unable to handle heat' by members of the community or black-balled by industry, [3] the lost wages/opportunity cost between quitting one job and starting the next, [4] the basic stress of having to get up to speed with a new job, meeting new people, and understanding the new social environment, [5] the emotional impact of looking for a job and getting a bunch of 'no's (My Mom got her EE degree, as a 50 year old woman, and tried looking for a job. The many 'no's she got became quite discouraging. People may stay with a job, with its external torments, than deal with the internal.)

You may object, and saying that if a person stays after a 5% pay cut then it shows that the job was priced above market rates. However, I would consider that practice an abuse of monopoly power.

Further, there's a Gambler's ruin issue to quitting, with the employer taking the role of the casino. It might be that a person has a job lined up, moves across the country, only to find that the position is soon no longer there. If that person's unlucky (as what happened with my Dad when I was little), then that could happen twice in a year. (We moved in with his parents for a few years while my parents built up savings again.)

When someone quits, they take the admittedly small chance that they may end up sleeping in a car or other situation drastically worse than what they would had had, should they stayed. While the likelihood that the employer will have correspondingly large negative impact when an non-key employee quits is significantly, even laughably, smaller.

This too makes the employer/employee relationship more unbalanced, and so open to abuse by the side of the employer.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#99
post #3

The primary function of a legal department is to provide advice that prevents legally actionable mistakes. This advice does not have to be sane, or efficient, or indeed have any consideration towards the interests of the company other than "prevents legally actionable mistakes". A few days ago HN saw an article about setting goals and perverse incentives. This is a simple example. Hypothetically, someone was reviewin…

Do typical BigCorps require re-signing your contract during the review process? Neither of the ~300 person tech companies I've worked for have had me sign anything past the first day.

Once a year there is an email that goes out saying "the law for X has changed, and so we require you to acknowledge you know this and sign Y". Basically updates to the employee handbook.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a lot of engineers, both here and elsewhere, have a very simplistic view of what other departments do. I've seen similar simplistic statements about design and management. I guess that's just part of human nature, to develop the view that only your work is complex or nuanced.

In this particular case though, there's not a lot of complexity or nuance, is there? It's a blanket "We own all your IP" clause in a contract.

But contracts itself are bound by city, state, and federal law, including civil, labor, IP, patent, etc...

Or you might get a bad lawyer or a favorable judge.

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