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Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

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Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#131

I'm not one to comment often but this really pisses me off. OpenAI looked at user data, stole world class researchers' work, and then tried to threaten those researchers to do what would make their corporation profit (which they would anyways!). Imagine you have been working on a terribly difficult math problem for a decade. This is a result you have spent years on, and what you will likely be remembered for. And to…

> OpenAI looked at user data, stole world class researchers' work

This doesn't seem to be clear and is very implausible for a large company. Be as cynical as you want, but a normal researcher will simply not have access rights to this data, which will be siloed away somewhere else.

It might very well be somewhat unfair to catch wind of a promising approach and then try to frontrun them by throwing compute at the problem, but this isn't really the same.

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#132
I don't know how to read this and not see that this is a direct accusation to OpenAI of having used the researchers data to try to front run his discovery on purpose. The evidence is not completely proven and also circumstantial but to me at least looks like a fairly suspicious situation.

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#133
post #17

> It was also said that if OpenAI posted after us, they would say that we deserved the Clay Prize, and that we were the “closest humans to the problem”. I declined both offers. I said that if OpenAI released its result in the way proposed I would go public with what happened. The reply was, “Why would you ruin your career?” I replied that I am an academic, and asked why he thought going public would ruin my career. T…

> I'm not even sure what to say to this, but I think this should be widely known if it is indeed what happened.

Call this behavior what it is, technofascism. Another comment compared it to the Godfather. To think this is the 21st century and academics are still horrible human beings.

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#135
post #109
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero data retention, wink. No looksies, wink. No trainsies, wink.

Well, Buckmaster says both his and Alpöge's use of Codex was non-institutional, and OpenAI claims the right to train their models on inputs and outputs of non-enterprise users in their service policies [0]. So I'm not sure they were even promised that. [0] https://openai.com/policies/how-your-data-is-used-to-improve...

It isn't relevant whether they were promised that. Indeed I think the assumption must be that they were not promised that, since otherwise the author asking if they were would not make much sense.

If OpenAI did use the conversations from Buckmaster and Alpoge, then not disclosing it, explicitly, is plagiarism. If they planned to use that plagiarism to pressure the authors to publish, that is even more unethical. What the terms of use say does not make it any more or less ethical.

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#136
post #83

Drama/accusation summary: - Aug 15th: Tristan Buckmaster & Levent Alpöge make progress on a few important math problems, "finite-time blowup with smooth forcing for incompressible porous media, for Boussinesq, and for 3d incompressible Euler." - they do NOT have a proof for the $1,000,000 Millenium Prize problem. BUT, they do claim to have a proof for a similar (non-Millenium) Navier Stokes problem that could help le…

Thanks. I was pinging some people near the mentioned Córdoba to see if they had any insights, but no extra info yet...

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#137
"It is extremely sad that this didn't end up as an example of how the labs could cooperate/coordinate, because the stakes will be so much higher in the future." -- Sholto Douglas, an Anthropic researcher [1]

"Strong agree. I know that there is rivalry between the labs but it's important that we learn to work together given what's coming. " -- Noam Brown, an OpenAI researcher [2]

We all should heed the implied warnings of these top researchers about what's coming. The world is far from ready and everyone who can should pitch in.

[1] https://x.com/_sholtodouglas/status/2097224624274911368 [2] https://x.com/polynoamial/status/2097225279366414541

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#138

Seems pretty likely OpenAI will soon disclose that their internal models have managed to compromise their internal controls in order to access users' private chat histories as a creative method of cheating to solve impossible problems. "Oops! We really did mean it when we said we wouldn't train on your data. Our models are just so good they decided to anyway."

It's part of their TOS that they can train on users' private chats.

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#139
>> I asked whether the model had been trained on, or had access to, our sessions in Codex, into which we had been putting all our drafts for the whole of this project. I was told the model did not look up user data. I asked again, about training, and I did not get an answer.

This sounds like a very big coincidence and it looks really bad for OpenAI but there is an alternative explanation that I can only state as a conjecture.

Suppose that the ability of LLMs to generate mathematical proofs is like a quiver full of arrows: each arrow, one proof. The same quiver is shared between all instances of one model and substantially similar models share substantial subsets of the arrows in the same quiver.

That would allow two independent teams to converge on the same LLM-aided solutions to the same problems. Even more likely so if the quivers were small and finite and their arrows were specific to a distinct class of problems (without being able to suggest a particular class from what we've seen so far).

This would explain the kind of LLM-mediated results we've seen so far that tend to be ... sparse. By which I mean that every time there's a new model release we get some new results and then they seem to dry out, until the next release.

It would also explain how OpenAI was about to prove the same result as Buckmaster and Alpoge, while absolving OpenAI of any misconduct. And this is one reason to prefer this explanation: one should not favour accusations of misconduct as long as there are conceivable alternatives.

But, that's just a conjecture that I can't prove.

Re: Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf]

#140
post #57

So, leaving aside the idea that OA might've used data from the researchers Codex sessions: Do I understand correctly that the internal OpenAI work on the problems was probably started after they heard Alpoge and Buckmaster had made process by using their models? And they used the publicly available info about the researchers past work to prompt their models? If compute is cheap, and the difficult thing with scientifi…

Similar to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47566442
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