American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals • Hacker News Board

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#91

Post by HarryHirsch » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 9:19 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #44

koralatov wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I'm defending grumblers, but I think a lot of the upset and anger comes from the fact that the opportunities aren't as readily available as they once were. The developed world is a much more regimented place than it once was, with fewer employers will to take chances on the people they employ. The classic trap a lot of Gen Y find themselves in is that they're not considered for jobs because they don't have e…

I don't know. There have been a lot of stories how young people are just a lot less willing to take risks than they used to be. I can tell you for a fact there are wide open $120k jobs in North Dakota and they are desperate for young up-and-comers, but no one wants to move to North Dakota. Older generations just didn't have that privilege. A generation ago, Gen Xers would leave home and move across the country just t…

One wouldn't doubt that there are well-paying jobs in North Dakota, but with a total of 700K people living in the whole state one immediately ask just how many $120K jobs there are, and how many applicants there are for each such job.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#92

Post by krakensden » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 9:31 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

tokenadult wrote: post #3

From the article: "Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last." There have been many postings to Hacker News recently with similar themes. The situation described increasingly looks like the s…

> I support United States policies that move in the direction of east Asian rather than western European patterns of government spending and social welfare This is going to be very difficult to pull off without a massive cultural change. The Confucian influence on East Asian culture has resulted in a much higher degree of filial piety (孝) than in the West, which makes it possible for people to live in old age without…

> There's simply no way around the math other than increasing the retirement age

Sure there is- ease immigration quotas for young people. You could solve the problem in five years. It's politically nightmarish, but the math is great.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#93

Post by Jimmy » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 9:31 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #66

Law (which OP focuses on) is a bizarre profession, because it used to be driven by an arms race dynamic. Most of what lawyers do, at the top of the profession, isn't intellectually difficult. The game is about being able to generate work for the other team faster than they can adapt to it. When litigation happens between large corporations, it's about playing the process, not arguing or interpreting the law itself. I…

>academia's a non-concern by this point.

Could you expand on what you mean by this? I'm just curious what your viewpoint is.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#94

Post by greenyoda » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 9:33 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #76

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I support United States policies that move in the direction of east Asian rather than western European patterns of government spending and social welfare This is going to be very difficult to pull off without a massive cultural change. The Confucian influence on East Asian culture has resulted in a much higher degree of filial piety (孝) than in the West, which makes it possible for people to live in old age without…

I'm pretty sure this is a foregone conclusion. There's simply no way around the math other than increasing the retirement age. If you go back 50 or 100 years, people didn't sit around for 20 or 30 years after retiring doing nothing - they simply died earlier. So if you're going to live until 80 or 90, you'd better work until at least 75. If you go back 50 or 100 years, productivity-per-hour was a tiny fraction of wha…

If you're going to finance your own retirement, feel free to stop working whenever you have enough money saved up. However, if you're going to demand that future generations of workers finance your retirement through taxation (which is how the U.S. Social Security system works), then what you're saying is that future generations have a "moral obligation" to spend ever-increasing fractions of their salaries to fund prior generations as life expectancy increases. Keeping the retirement age the same while life expectancy goes up results in an increasing transfer of wealth from younger generations to older generations, with older people having an increased standard of living at the expense of younger ones.

By the way, higher productivity per hour doesn't necessarily mean that people can afford to pay higher taxes to fund your longer retirement. In many cases, it means that employees are expected to work more hours (e.g., work 50 hours a week and answer e-mails from home) for the same salary. Also, productivity per hour is only likely to have increased in jobs that are based on technology. It's not likely that the productivity per hour of a mail carrier or a teacher or a waiter is much higher than it was decades ago.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#95

Post by Tichy » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 9:47 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #33

One of the puzzling parts of the current working situation is that the people who are working seem to be putting in way more hours and effort than they used to. What I can't put a finger on is the underlying reason why me and about all of my working friends have almost zero time anymore to do recreational activities, or to spend time with our families and friends. We workers seem all over-burdened with our work. But,…

Maybe you are just too nice to say "no" to more hours?

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#96

Post by CamperBob2 » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #67

w1ntermute wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because you don't die before you're 90 doesn't mean you can work any longer than your grandparents did Why not? People are healthier than ever before, and are working jobs that require much less physical endurance. > even assuming somebody still wants to employ you Again, if you're living longer, your usefulness is decaying at a slower rate.

>Why not? People are healthier than ever before... There's no evidence this is true. You realize in the US 30% of the population is obese and almost 10% of us have diabetes, right? >...and are working jobs that require much less physical endurance. Right, because sitting at a desk for forty years is the key to good health. >Again, if you're living longer, your usefulness is decaying at a slower rate. And again, there…

You realize in the US 30% of the population is obese and almost 10% of us have diabetes, right?

A couple of points worth making:

1) 10% of people have diabetes because the definition of "diabetes" has been tinkered with extensively over the last couple of generations. Blood sugar levels that wouldn't have resulted in a diagnosis in the 1950s are now grounds for panic in your doctor's office. I'm not qualified to judge this as a good thing or a bad thing, overall, but it's obvious that it renders basic statistical comparisons impossible. We've seen similar abuse of statistics with other conditions such as autism.

2) If people are heavier now than we were in the past, it could be for the same reason that we're taller than our ancestors: better nutrition (as opposed to the usual claim of worse nutrition.)

In support of that idea, there was an amusing link on Fark earlier: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2251920/171-pounds... (May be considered NSFW if you work in a church.)

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#97

Post by dxbydt » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 10:01 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #58

Permit wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An exercise in trading anecdotes isn't going to get anyone anywhere. The fact that the people you've surrounded yourself are relatively well off does not offset problems surrounding unemployment and falling wages.

We're not "well-off" by any stretch. We're happy, we're motivated, but we're all sitting on respective powderkegs of fiscal disaster. I'm uninsured--one slip in the bathroom and I'm bankrupt. We live in a house because we can split rent and utilities super cheaply and it lets us live next to where we like working. I'll be the first one there with you waving signs about unemployment problems and falling wages--do you…

This is getting rather silly. Ask any immigrant what "the American dream" is. Take an average of their responses and you'd have a reasonable approximation of the American dream. Nobody in their right minds would redefine the American dream to be 5 uninsured happy motivated apartment sharing guys one bathroom slip away from bankruptcy changing the world with their precious github commits. I lived 5 years in the texas heartland... nobody I know meets that definition. People are living paycheck to paycheck ans there is genuine concern that the American dream has passed them by.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#98

Post by greenyoda » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 10:03 PM UTC

Jimmy wrote: post #93

michaelochurch wrote: post #66

Law (which OP focuses on) is a bizarre profession, because it used to be driven by an arms race dynamic. Most of what lawyers do, at the top of the profession, isn't intellectually difficult. The game is about being able to generate work for the other team faster than they can adapt to it. When litigation happens between large corporations, it's about playing the process, not arguing or interpreting the law itself. I…

>academia's a non-concern by this point. Could you expand on what you mean by this? I'm just curious what your viewpoint is.

Most academic jobs available these days are low-paid, part-time, non-tenure-track adjunct faculty positions, which don't bring a lot of prestige. The academia bubble burst quite a while ago, leaving lots of people with PhDs feeling the same as the law school grads feel today.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#99

Post by michaelochurch » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 10:12 PM UTC

Jimmy wrote: post #93

michaelochurch wrote: post #66

Law (which OP focuses on) is a bizarre profession, because it used to be driven by an arms race dynamic. Most of what lawyers do, at the top of the profession, isn't intellectually difficult. The game is about being able to generate work for the other team faster than they can adapt to it. When litigation happens between large corporations, it's about playing the process, not arguing or interpreting the law itself. I…

>academia's a non-concern by this point. Could you expand on what you mean by this? I'm just curious what your viewpoint is.

The academic career and the "life of the mind" are done-for in this society. The US has already decided that it doesn't care about these things, and there really isn't an option to turn back. There will be demand for teaching, for sure, but basic research is gone and the academic career no longer has the resources to create enough decent positions that would entice the top people to stay.

What's happening now is that the best people are going into industry, and spending time in academia after they are rich enough to retire. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the future of academia: a place where successful older people teach the young, but not a lifelong career.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#100

Post by greenyoda » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 10:23 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #33

One of the puzzling parts of the current working situation is that the people who are working seem to be putting in way more hours and effort than they used to. What I can't put a finger on is the underlying reason why me and about all of my working friends have almost zero time anymore to do recreational activities, or to spend time with our families and friends. We workers seem all over-burdened with our work. But,…

To your employer, there's no situation that needs alleviation. They're very happy that they can get you to work more hours for the same pay, and even happier that they don't have to pay increasingly costly health benefits for an additional employee when one employee can be made to do the work of two. They obviously don't care that you're suffering.

And "no qualified people to hire" is a euphemism for "no qualified people willing to work for the low salaries that we're willing to pay them for the long hours we expect them to work." Double that salary and they'd probably have qualified candidates flying in from across the country and pounding down their doors.