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GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

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Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#61

Post by Diti »

Retr0id wrote: post #26
rickdeckard wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yup. I'm sitting on one that doesn't even require an internet connection, only RF down the TV antenna input. I'm waiting for my model to go EOL before I release it. So no responsible disclosure, I see. Not knowing any more details, it still sounds like you'd still need the user to tune to the actual frequency on the correct receiver (to cause some buffer overflow?). But then still there's no internet to do anything…

> So no responsible disclosure, I see. Huh?

Not disclosing a vulnerability you found to the manufacturer (while the product can still hopefully be patched) is “not responsible”. I think that’s what the person is trying to say.

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#62

Post by michaelt »

rickdeckard wrote: post #23
Retr0id wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I'm sitting on one that doesn't even require an internet connection, only RF down the TV antenna input. I'm waiting for my model to go EOL before I release it.

> Yup. I'm sitting on one that doesn't even require an internet connection, only RF down the TV antenna input. I'm waiting for my model to go EOL before I release it. So no responsible disclosure, I see. Not knowing any more details, it still sounds like you'd still need the user to tune to the actual frequency on the correct receiver (to cause some buffer overflow?). But then still there's no internet to do anything…

> So no responsible disclosure, I see.

If I, a corporation, declare that I only accept security reports carved on clay tablets in ancient greek and hand-delivered to my office in Timbuktu during a total solar eclipse - does that stop responsible security researchers from disclosing their findings publicly?

Of course not.

If the guy sends a clear message to the best public contact address he can find with 15 minutes of searching; and gives them 30 days to patch before publicly disclosing the bug; then he's performed responsible disclosure.

The vendor's corporate policies and release cycles and contact addresses and triage procedures are their problem.

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#63

Post by rcxdude »

mort96 wrote: post #56
rickdeckard wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stated that you're "sitting on one that doesn't even require an internet connection [..] I'm waiting for my model to go EOL before I release it" I read this as "Wait until the model is EOL, hoping it won't be disclosed and fixed until then and also not fixed afterwards" Is this not what you meant to say?

Responsible disclosure makes sense when the user and the manufacturer have the same goal of the product being secure. Jailbreaking is a case where the user and the manufacturer have opposing goals: the user wants to be in charge their hardware, the manufacturer wants to prevent the user from being in charge of their own hardware. Responsible disclosure doesn't make sense, the manufacturer would just patch the vulnera…

Exactly. This control-freak nature of manufacturers is sadly what makes me cheer for the security holes much of the time.

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#64

Post by rcxdude »

jeffbee wrote: post #27
rickdeckard wrote: post #11

Thanks for the write-up, it reflects my own impression of the video. The video is quite a mixed set of topics mangled together, which is a pity because IMO a cleaner separation would be more beneficial to get the point across. They should have decided to set the focus on a specific area and then present every finding around that, i.e.: 1. The Ad data-collecting platform TV-manufacturers are operating, what data they…

Yeah if GN wants to keep my attention on this topic they need to edit out all the stuff about normal Wi-Fi stack behaviors and normal local device discovery behaviors. They didn't need to pad their feature-length video with these non-issues.

They are pretty infamously overly verbose.

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#65

Post by rickdeckard »

taurath wrote: post #52
rickdeckard wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the author, the point is that the way the video and the overall research was done, the entire message was diluted too much. There is substance in what they did. But they should have worked with an actual journalist to frame this properly and create pressure on the overarching topics. If a TV company (LG or ANY of the others who have Ad-subsidiaries) needs to respond to this video, they can easily reframe…

> What data is actually being collected about the user, and what is done with this data? This question implies that the answer could be something other than the maximum amount of data collection and monetization of that data they can get away with. If that statement gives you pause please spend even a short amount of time reading about ad networks, data brokers, and corporate surveillance.

Yeah, I wouldn't vouch for a US court, but lucky me I'm in the EU, where the answer "the maximum amount of data collection and monetization of that data they can get away with" is not compliant to the requirements of GDPR.

So even IF that would be a sufficient answer in a court of US, it would not be sufficient in a court of an EU country.

--> Hence my point on how the overall message was diluted too much.

See, you may look at all this as "nothing can be done anyway, so let's bunch it all together and rant about it as emotionally as possible". But I look at it as "this is all potential evidence that a law was either already broken or needs to have a loophole closed"

But you won't get any of this done by spraying all over how normal this is and how everyone does it anyway. You get this done with a precise shot at ONE of them, concise enough to pin them down while aiming at the next one.

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#66

Post by rickdeckard »

lukeschlather wrote: post #55
rickdeckard wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the author, the point is that the way the video and the overall research was done, the entire message was diluted too much. There is substance in what they did. But they should have worked with an actual journalist to frame this properly and create pressure on the overarching topics. If a TV company (LG or ANY of the others who have Ad-subsidiaries) needs to respond to this video, they can easily reframe…

LG's terms of service essentially state that they will record any voice commands and store them for 6 months. They explicitly say they may store them in Korea. https://us.lgappstv.com/main/terms Actually I think everything you're suggesting is unclear, LG explicitly say they do these things in their ToS. I skimmed their privacy policy, and I'm pretty sure it essentially says they collect all this information and use…

Yeah, and here's the part that's interesting to me as a EU-consumer: This wording doesn't exist in the European ToS: https://gb.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6

So there's the angle that US is lacking the proper regulation, and the angle that LG may have violated its ToS in the EU.

But neither of this is going to get pinned down if everything is bunched together without focus and clear evidence...

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#67

Post by dgellow »

mort96 wrote: post #57
froddd wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of what I’m reading on rootmy.tv says the vulnerability it exploits has been fixed. So, if one were to keep software up to date on their TV, there is an improbably small chance it can actually be remotely jailbroken — am I reading this right?

why would I want to keep the software on my TV updated, it's a screen

It’s a whole computer that runs YouTube, Netflix, Amazon video, etc

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#68

Post by mort96 »

dgellow wrote: post #67
mort96 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would I want to keep the software on my TV updated, it's a screen

It’s a whole computer that runs YouTube, Netflix, Amazon video, etc

I've never used a TV that way, that's the job of whatever is connected to the TV. But if you do use your TV like that, didn't those things work when you got it? Why do you need software updates?

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#69

Post by bakugo »

jeffbee wrote: post #27
rickdeckard wrote: post #11

Thanks for the write-up, it reflects my own impression of the video. The video is quite a mixed set of topics mangled together, which is a pity because IMO a cleaner separation would be more beneficial to get the point across. They should have decided to set the focus on a specific area and then present every finding around that, i.e.: 1. The Ad data-collecting platform TV-manufacturers are operating, what data they…

Yeah if GN wants to keep my attention on this topic they need to edit out all the stuff about normal Wi-Fi stack behaviors and normal local device discovery behaviors. They didn't need to pad their feature-length video with these non-issues.

GN has sadly been trending towards overly long, rambly clickbait videos in recent years, in line with the rest of Youtube. Most of their videos could easily convey the same information with a third of the length.

It's unfortunate, because they're one of the few voices speaking out about issues like this.

Re: GamersNexus and LG: Or why rooting your TV is a bad idea

#70

Post by rickdeckard »

mort96 wrote: post #56
rickdeckard wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stated that you're "sitting on one that doesn't even require an internet connection [..] I'm waiting for my model to go EOL before I release it" I read this as "Wait until the model is EOL, hoping it won't be disclosed and fixed until then and also not fixed afterwards" Is this not what you meant to say?

Responsible disclosure makes sense when the user and the manufacturer have the same goal of the product being secure. Jailbreaking is a case where the user and the manufacturer have opposing goals: the user wants to be in charge their hardware, the manufacturer wants to prevent the user from being in charge of their own hardware. Responsible disclosure doesn't make sense, the manufacturer would just patch the vulnera…

To me as a user, responsible disclosure is most-valuable for every vulnerability that could be exploited remotely without me being in control.

The video draws exactly that picture, a nefarious actor, remotely taking control over my TV and recording Audio from it

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