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The revolt of the reader

bcantrill.dtrace.org

301–310 of 313 posts

Re: The revolt of the reader

#301
The biggest tell is that, most of the time, verbatim LLM output still doesn't actually make much sense if you read it carefully. Consider this excerpt from a README someone linked in the comments:

> A compiler for the interface your agent already has: the shell. MCP makes an agent carry every tool's schema on every turn; declick compiles an API, an MCP server, or a database once into named verbs the model loads one at a time, and every verb returns one envelope with five exit codes. A team pushes a compiled adapter to a shared folder or git checkout once and every other machine pulls it. Ten engines, zero runtime dependencies, Node 24.

What the hell would it even actually mean to have a "compiler for the shell"? How do you "compile" a database into a "named verb"? What would this mean? These notions don't meaningfully cohere together. Why exactly is an "envelope with five exit codes"? Are we getting all of the exit codes at once? That wouldn't make any sense. LLM writing is full of this kind of arbitrary collision of concepts that sound like they plausibly go together thanks to frequent co-occurrence but that have no coherent logical meaning when you apply even a modicum of critical scrutiny. This is why I find it astounding that anyone believes these things are "intelligent" and not still just fundamentally a matrix machine completing words.

Re: The revolt of the reader

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling LLMs to be concise works. > Reword this concisely: > I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. > Ultra-concise: Talent and effort don't guarantee success; luck and timing happen to everyone. > Punchy: The best…

Concise helps clarity, but notice what still is lost. The original version used multiple perspectives to illustrate the point. It invites consideration, putting yourself in the shoes of each person before the "twist" is applied to each. It makes the point more visceral and memorable because it is (slightly) lived instead of told. This is the difference between writing to convince a broad audience and writing to expla…

I find the original poorly written, and it did not, for me, invite any consideration, because it didn't make much sense. "Bread to the wise"? "Riches to men of understanding?" Why would someone wise get bread, or someone with understanding be rich? What's the difference between "wise" and "men of understanding", anyway?

LLMs didn't write "It's better to be lucky than good.", but I find it both easier to understand and easier to remember than the biblical version.

Re: The revolt of the reader

#303
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument doesn't work, the average majority of humans are bad at math but recent LLM aren't.

But people who are bad at maths are unlikely to be writing about maths. A crude example might be if you search for “2+2=” in the training data, you’re much more likely to find “4” as the next character. Obviously llms are far more complex than this, but I think this proves the point. The fact you had to add the “recent” qualifier there highlights that llms in general were bad and had to be provided with corrective ta…

> they still can’t count the R’s in strawberry!

My resident Qwythos-9B counts 3 "r"s in "strawberry". So even locally hosted models are catching up.

Re: The revolt of the reader

#304
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my view is more like that he was too good at English to write bad English that he was criticizing. Are you sure it's not more likely that we are all way worse at reading compared to the average mid-20th centry reader? The examples he wrote are simply too sharp to fit well into his own criticisms. So he's an overeducated dolt who thinks he's making a good point, and you - and no one else in the hundred years since…

> we are all way worse at reading compared to the average mid-20th centry reader? I would say English has changed. Modern English speakers, especially those in academia and technology, prefers explicit styles over poetic and nuanced ones. There are a lot of factors at play (e.g. i18n, the internet, education, literature) but I’m too lazy to cover them here. > you - and no one else in the hundred years since - found h…

> Also, my point is neither fatal nor about mistake[sic]. Orwell’s examples still demonstrate his claims in a relative sense, all within the context of the essay. However, when you pull them out of the context and put them out in the wild, it’s going to be very difficult to say those are bad writings[sic] right away, because, compared to other bad writings[sic], those examples are very solid and straightforward.

You should take this as an opportunity to improve your English and widen your reading, rather than trying to win a silly argument on a forum with 'logical fallacies' and other such humdrum wikiphilosophy. I'm not even sure what you meant to say in this paragraph, it's not at all clear I'm afraid.

Your perspective on this is entirely wrong, starting with a mistake about the intentions of Orwell and the quality of the text (which is deliberately obtuse and plain awful in so many ways). If you can't easily interpret the biblical text, that's fine, it is quite old, but there is really no excuse for saying that Orwell is a bad writer or .

But Orwell's example here is an example of bad writing, not good, and was produced deliberately as an anti-pattern. It has no redeeming features, and deliberately so. If you read 1984, you'll see further what he was getting at and rebelling against - a tendency to use words to obscure and twist meaning rather than transmit it.

Re: The revolt of the reader

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "quid pro quo" I wasn't suggesting that Pangram's PR people's podcast placement was pay-for-play, just that they traded access for your positioning of their tech and their exec in your content marketing efforts. That's pretty normal, but the point is that a blog post which is 35% Pangram promotion may not actually be less annoying than the use of AI to help write blog posts.

Yeah, fair -- and definitely not: I am earnestly just a fan of what they built (and I also think it's really important as a way of getting a check against rampant LLM use).

https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/proof-of-human/jobs/ZT...

Re: The revolt of the reader

#306
post #73

Disclaimer: I do not like to read LLM-generated text any more than anyone else. IMHO a big problem with Pangram in particular is that they market it as a reliable tool that can be used to catch students cheating. This can obviously have disastrous effects on young lives, because it is not as reliable as they suggest. Per their own benchmarks, they do not achieve 100% accuracy even on text that is published on the Int…

I don't think 100% accuracy is logically possible. Because it's entirely possible that someone would just naturally write the exact same thing as an LLM would write. And after the fact there is no way to distinguish the two. But pangram does have an extremely low false positive rate, which I think does make it useful for detecting cheating students. Assuming the base rate of cheating students is 1%, and assuming pang…

> ~98% of students flagged by pangram actually cheated

That 2% is a large number! Of people who will have their integrity impugned for no good reason! That's not okay!

Your calculations also are mixing assignments and students. The rate of false positives of 1/10k is of corpuses, not students. 10k students might each submit 2-3 written assignments per week. Obviously, this greatly increases the impact of the false positive rate.

And all of these numbers are dependent on lab conditions for usage, which are not the case in the real world.

> I don't think 100% accuracy is logically possible.

Yes. Which is why marketing this product as it currently is, is a deeply irresponsible endeavor.

Re: The revolt of the reader

#307
post #73

Disclaimer: I do not like to read LLM-generated text any more than anyone else. IMHO a big problem with Pangram in particular is that they market it as a reliable tool that can be used to catch students cheating. This can obviously have disastrous effects on young lives, because it is not as reliable as they suggest. Per their own benchmarks, they do not achieve 100% accuracy even on text that is published on the Int…

The false positive rate for Pangram 4 is something like one in 24,000.[0] To put that in perspective, the wrongful-conviction (false positive rate) for death-sentenced defendants in the US is estimated conservatively to be around 4.1%.[1] The FP rate for death-sentence convictions is 1,000 times bigger than Pangram’s FP rate. Now, the US criminal system is not a great yardstick for justice. But it goes to show you Pa…

There are a couple of statistical errors in your argument here.

First is frequency. Even using Pangram's claimed numbers, the University of Georgia should expect to see several false positives every week. Remember that the metric is # of assignments run through Pangram, not number of students. A campus of 40k students will see many more than 40k assignments every week, and so should expect honest students to be accused of cheating with some high degree of frequency. You're comparing infrequent events (death penalty sentences) to high-frequency events (students submitting assignments).

And obviously, you are citing a company marketing document as fact, of which we should all be suspicious. (There are also obvious problems with the eval dataset that the paper does not address.)

Second, you're using the upper bound for Pangram's claimed numbers and the lower bound cited in the NIH publication.

> at least 4.1% would be exonerated. We conclude that this is a conservative estimate of the proportion of false conviction among death sentences in the United States.

The one commonality is that

Re: The revolt of the reader

#308
post #160

I was so optimistic about using LLMs for "write once, read many" English language documents, but the more I've used the tools, the more pessimistic I get. More and more, I try to ask it for low prose responses because its writing just seems like such a low signal to noise ratio I'm curious about why LLM writing fails. Particularly whether LLM writing is fundamentally flawed, or if it's just distinctive and since it o…

I think it's somewhere in the process it was asked "what's the most compelling written text?" The answer was things from great speeches "Ask not what you ..." and so on. And that really is great and compelling. However. Great and compelling is not what I'm looking for when my question is, "Systemd-networkd is pulling an ip address for a bonded interface that only exist as a 802.1Q trunk. How do I make it stop that?"

Not the main point at all, but what was it? Pattern matching rule nestled deep in /lib/systemd/network? Some kind of mysterious netplan / NetworkManager compat layer?

Re: The revolt of the reader

#309
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are all way worse at reading compared to the average mid-20th centry reader? I would say English has changed. Modern English speakers, especially those in academia and technology, prefers explicit styles over poetic and nuanced ones. There are a lot of factors at play (e.g. i18n, the internet, education, literature) but I’m too lazy to cover them here. > you - and no one else in the hundred years since - found h…

> Also, my point is neither fatal nor about mistake[sic]. Orwell’s examples still demonstrate his claims in a relative sense, all within the context of the essay. However, when you pull them out of the context and put them out in the wild, it’s going to be very difficult to say those are bad writings[sic] right away, because, compared to other bad writings[sic], those examples are very solid and straightforward. You…

> widen your reading, rather than trying to win a silly argument on a forum with 'logical fallacies' and other such humdrum wikiphilosophy.

Yeah, sure, the paragraph there is pretty bad, I admit. I was having an technical issue w/ my phone. But, look, did you really read my comment, the whole set of it? It's not even about philosophy. I'm just talking about a little /finding/ that Orwell's examples of bad-English is much better than what you usually find in your daily lives.

I'm not even arguing here, because you people avoid engaging w/ my point itself. It's more like I'm only repeating myself again and again and again. I'm not raising anything new.

> Your perspective on this is entirely wrong, starting with a mistake about the intentions of Orwell and the quality of the text (which is deliberately obtuse and plain awful in so many ways). If you can't easily interpret the biblical text, that's fine, it is quite old, but there is really no excuse for saying that Orwell is a bad writer

First, if you were talking about my first comment, I did mention that "I'm only guessing". I did clarify that I didn't read at that point. Someone replied with a link to the essay, so I read it, and only then I said "I [had] read it".

Second, I never said the original is bad. I only said the parody is pretty good, perhaps because of its brutal explicitness, which the first one lacks comparably.

Also, I've been saying that Orwell is a bad /bad-English/ writer, not a bad writer. His proficiency in English doesn't imply any proficiency in reproducing the bad-English he was criticizing. This part is childish, sure, but it was supposed to be /fun/.

> But Orwell's example here is an example of bad writing, not good, and was produced deliberately as an anti-pattern.

I totally agree here, but ...

> It has no redeeming features

... this is the part I disagree with.

Sure, on the surface, they are chokingly bad. I definitely agree that he removed certain qualities from those examples, and, for demonstration purposes, they serve the purpose.

However, if you offer those examples completely out-of-context, it's going to be difficult to dismiss them simply as bad writings. Their logical flow is very natural, and his word choices are very precise. It is much better /formulated/ than a lot of real-world bad English writings. I definitely sense /professional touches/ from those examples. That's why I said that it would take me hours, if not days, to write such sentences by myself.

In short: badly written, well formulated.

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