American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals • Hacker News Board

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#21

Post by ronnier » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:53 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And without the well-off students as their peers in the public schools, the poorer students won't improve, no matter how much money you throw at the situation. I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? I'd love to see data on this one way or the other. While most people don't mind if their children assoc…

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education.

I was the product of one of these experiments. The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school.

I can guarantee I didn't improve the educational outcomes for any of my classmates. And all I received from it was random beatings, violent attacks against me, and a subpar education. I did learn something though... Once out, I studied my ass off and work as hard as possible so that neither I nor my children will live through such an experiment again.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#22

Post by bmmayer1 » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

As a member of Generation Y, it is hard to have much sympathy for the "plight" of GenY compared to pretty much any other generation in world history. We haven't been drafted into foreign wars or had to suffer through a real depression. A third of us didn't die in an influenza epidemic. Our women and minorities haven't had to face entrenched and legally immovable workplace discrimination. We have had to face no real looming foreign threat, let alone a nuclear one. Most of us (who are called "GenY") didn't have to escape persecution or immigrate with $1 in our pockets with a chance of being turned back at the border, or get spat on by natives when we arrived.

With the help of technology, the Pax Americana and a stable world order, improved healthcare, reduced social barriers and relative economic stability, the generation born in the 80's to 90's is probably the most privileged. Generation. Ever. In history. For 15,000 years of human civilization. I mean, it's now considered normal (and even a human right by some) to take 2-3 weeks vacation every year. So when I read that "I got a $150,000 education and now I have to work for only $40,000," or (as I've heard before), "I have a college education, I shouldn't be working at Pier One," I just want to vomit. My immigrant grandparents would have killed for the chance to work at Pier One. The world doesn't owe you a living because you graduated from a top tier school with a degree in Environmental Studies, or even took out a loan to go to law school.

Look, it's not like Generation Y--or, specifically, individuals in Generation Y like in every generation--don't have any problems, but you have to have a sense of perspective. Success for any generation has always been about hard (productive) work, to better one's self and one's family. The American Dream has always been about being born into rags and working into to riches, not from being born into riches and being owed something by the virtue of your privilege, which is what this "death of the American Dream" nonsense is about. By this article's own admission, we've been so warped by our parents' relative privilege that it's hard to see the big picture. Look at the big picture.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#23

Post by lispertoascheme » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

The article focuses on a couple of lawyers. Lawyers are classic parasites. They need to find money-making entities to act as "hosts". When the economy is sinking, there are less healthy hosts for the parasites to target. The few parasites who are lucky enough to find hosts that can act as hosts will be in good stead (the article admits profits have risen at law firms, even if hiring has plummeted). It's strange to think the American Dream (How do you define it? Is it home ownership and progeny?) must be funded through parasitic behavior.

Be a host not a parasite and you will always be able to live the Dream, no matter what direction the economy goes. That's because you create value instead of merely searching out others who are creating it.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#24

Post by w1ntermute » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:56 PM UTC

ronnier wrote: post #21

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I was the product of one of these experiments. The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. I…

> The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school.

Sounds like this was done the wrong way around. What percentage of the students at your school were white?

You got your ass beat because you were in the minority, and you were in their school. The best way to change behavior is to intimidate the students through intense peer pressure. If the minority students are going to a school where they are the minority (and properly integrated into the student body), the results will be very different from what you experienced.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#25

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And without the well-off students as their peers in the public schools, the poorer students won't improve, no matter how much money you throw at the situation. I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? I'd love to see data on this one way or the other. While most people don't mind if their children assoc…

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

This idea also brings up a moral question - how do you justify forcing children of the rich to suffer in order to counteract the bad parenting habits of the poor?

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#26

Post by Joeri » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

phillmv wrote: post #10

cglace wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why everyone wants housing prices to go up. As a person looking to buy a home in the near future I certainly do not hope the housing prices head towards their prerecession levels.

Why, they're investments. Of course you want prices to go up! You're sinking a huge quantity of money - presumably, above that of an equivalent rental unit in your region - and by golly, you need returns on that or else you're just fritting it all away. It's all compounded by the fact that housing is the only major asset investment that the vast majority of people ever engage in.

They're only an investment if you buy more housing than you need. After all, you need housing, so when you sell that home at increased value, you will need to use that revenue to buy new housing which has also risen in cost.

In short, only if you can sell your home and buy a cheaper home can it be considered an investment. Otherwise it's just non-liquid capital.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#27

Post by nn2 » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

Less jobs for lawyers generally seems like a good thing to me. Like investment banks lawyers do not create much (any?) value. That's a good sign for society. There may be some hope left.

Now it's not good for those who wasted a lot of money on a law school. They made a bad decision and will adjust.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#28

Post by beatpanda » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:05 PM UTC

I don't know, I never found the idea of "The American Dream" all that appealing in the first place. The whole thing sounds like kind of a drag.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#29

Post by w1ntermute » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:06 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #25

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

This idea also brings up a moral question - how do you justify forcing children of the rich to suffer in order to counteract the bad parenting habits of the poor?

The same way you justify progressive taxation, I suppose. Moreover, the government already does many (other) blatantly immoral things in the name of the (expected) results.

But I am less concerned with the morality of it and more concerned with the practicality. If the children of the rich do start suffering, they will simply pull their children out of the public schools, putting you back at square one.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#30

Post by mgkimsal » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:07 PM UTC

cglace wrote: post #8

donretag wrote: post #4

The employment problem is precisely why I do not think the housing market will ever "recover". Housing prices did not crash, they simply aligned themselves with current and forecasted salaries. Attempts at raising housing prices to "normal" levels is a fools game. Create the jobs and the salaries first and the rest will follow.

I don't understand why everyone wants housing prices to go up. As a person looking to buy a home in the near future I certainly do not hope the housing prices head towards their prerecession levels.

Once you buy one, you'd certainly not want the prices to go up. Indeed, you may in fact want them to go up.