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Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

kuber.studio

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Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#71
post #67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a genuinely good implementation of the concept. It looks good and plays reasonably well and captures what it needs to capture from the original. (Update: OK the sword fighting isn't good. As I got deeper into the game my positive first impressions wore off.)

I haven't tried any of these demos, but I'm not surprised they stop impressing once you go deep. What got be mostly impressed were the demos of Astra doing computer use. At my job I do some RPA and can appreciate how challenging it can be. Yet they make it look extremely easy to operate a tool like Blender at super human speeds.

I've been using Blender via Astra (and Sol before they) without any UI automation at all - Blender supports writing and executing Python scripts, here's how I'm doing that: https://til.simonwillison.net/llms/blender-coding-agents-mac...

I'd be surprised if any of the impressive Blender demos doing the rounds at the moment were built by having an agent control the mouse and keyboard against the Blender application.

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#72
post #60

Right answer wrong thesis. The example of 'labs are optimizing for this' is the wrong thesis. AI arbitrarily generating something of 'apparent sophistication' is not that hard - being able to produce it to spec that has invariable vague elements - and then being able to rationally modify it is the problem. Look at image gen: you press the magic button and get a 'Pelican on a Bike' - but you can't just change the 'hat…

[flagged]

Yes, you're attacking my imperfect analogy mostly though - yes, there are techniques like masking but they're still not very good or precise. Particularly for images, the AI is generally not capturing the physics of the situation. Just presentation.

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#73

Right answer wrong thesis. The example of 'labs are optimizing for this' is the wrong thesis. AI arbitrarily generating something of 'apparent sophistication' is not that hard - being able to produce it to spec that has invariable vague elements - and then being able to rationally modify it is the problem. Look at image gen: you press the magic button and get a 'Pelican on a Bike' - but you can't just change the 'hat…

> Look at image gen: you press the magic button and get a 'Pelican on a Bike' - but you can't just change the 'hat' of the Pelican. You have to press the magic button again, and you get a whole different Pelican on a Bike. I do understand what you mean and perhaps I am trying to treat it as a problem to be solved and challenge accepted but my first thoughts are if its an vector image like SVG (the famous simonw's pel…

Yes, for things we can construct, and where we can train on the pieces, there's hope - software is a bit like that. Its not like 'raw' image generation, it's not a perfect example but the notion remains.

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#74
post #71
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't tried any of these demos, but I'm not surprised they stop impressing once you go deep. What got be mostly impressed were the demos of Astra doing computer use. At my job I do some RPA and can appreciate how challenging it can be. Yet they make it look extremely easy to operate a tool like Blender at super human speeds.

I've been using Blender via Astra (and Sol before they) without any UI automation at all - Blender supports writing and executing Python scripts, here's how I'm doing that: https://til.simonwillison.net/llms/blender-coding-agents-mac... I'd be surprised if any of the impressive Blender demos doing the rounds at the moment were built by having an agent control the mouse and keyboard against the Blender application.

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

A scripting API makes the problem much more approachable, but what about those videos where Astra is drawing people from a photo? Here's one using canva: https://x.com/iam_zachi/status/2095992132620136677

Is that also using scripting to batch updates? It does look as if the mouse is moving.

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#75
post #74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using Blender via Astra (and Sol before they) without any UI automation at all - Blender supports writing and executing Python scripts, here's how I'm doing that: https://til.simonwillison.net/llms/blender-coding-agents-mac... I'd be surprised if any of the impressive Blender demos doing the rounds at the moment were built by having an agent control the mouse and keyboard against the Blender application.

Interesting, thanks for sharing! A scripting API makes the problem much more approachable, but what about those videos where Astra is drawing people from a photo? Here's one using canva: https://x.com/iam_zachi/status/2095992132620136677 Is that also using scripting to batch updates? It does look as if the mouse is moving.

Yeah that one looks like controlled mouse updates. I wonder if they sped up the video?

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#76
post #75
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, thanks for sharing! A scripting API makes the problem much more approachable, but what about those videos where Astra is drawing people from a photo? Here's one using canva: https://x.com/iam_zachi/status/2095992132620136677 Is that also using scripting to batch updates? It does look as if the mouse is moving.

Yeah that one looks like controlled mouse updates. I wonder if they sped up the video?

I'm certain the video is sped up. Still possible to script computer use, and I think this is what happens. One of the suggests this: https://x.com/DanielSMatthews/status/2096311244504572177

Could be hallucination, but I gave this to an LLM and this is what it suggested:

"

The workflow shown in the video—processing an image and then controlling a computer interface to draw it—is a combination of two well-established fields: Computer Vision and UI Automation.

You do not necessarily need a Large Language Model to perform the underlying image processing; standard algorithms can do this deterministically.

Step A: Image Processing (The "Brain")

You can write a script (using Python libraries like OpenCV or Pillow) to process the reference photo:

    - Edge Detection: Use filters (like Canny or Sobel) to find the "high spatial frequencies" (outlines).

    - Color Quantization: Use clustering algorithms (like K-Means) in the HSL space to group millions of pixels into a small palette of distinct colors.

    - Vectorization: Convert these processed shapes into a set of coordinates (SVG paths) that represent exactly where the mouse needs to move.


Step B: UI Automation (The "Hand")

Once the image is converted into a set of instructions (coordinates and color codes), you can use automation tools to physically control the computer and draw on Canva.

    - Browser Automation: Developers have already created projects that use Selenium (a web automation tool) combined with edge detection algorithms to draw images onto HTML canvases.

    - The script reads the pixel data, calculates the mouse coordinates, and executes the "click-and-drag" actions in the browser.

    - Computer Use APIs: In the case of GPT-6 Astra, the model uses a "Computer Use" interface. It effectively takes the processed image data (or generates it internally) and outputs high-level commands (e.g., "Move mouse to X,Y," "Click," "Select Hex Color #FF5733"), which the system then executes on the screen.
"

Seems plausible and easier to believe. Also, feels like a "magic trick" designed to fool the user into believing that the agent is drawing interactively by using its vision, since it could just have written a python script that takes the input image, and produces the exact same result without automating the screen.

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#77
I have become increasingly doubtful when it comes to using existing applications as a measure for coding agents. If the task in question is difficult enough that it cannot be completed in just one try, then the result's quality largely depends on the model's supporting framework, i.e. how the problem is divided in the prompt, how many iterations are made, what tools are employed, and how many instructions it gets from a human operator. I would also propose to take into account the documentation and testing processes while constructing the framework. The action of an agent that preserves its history, records unsuccessful attempts and known pitfalls, and constantly makes and executes tests can differ a lot from the same model in the absence of such history. In a lengthy task the ability to remember what was learned from previous failures can be as significant as producing the next piece of code. Another issue is related to contamination. When it comes to such game as Minecraft, the model is not starting from scratch. Many elements, such as game mechanics, design, tutorials, and many lines of code are available online for a long time and probably formed a basis

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#78
post #30

I use Minecraft (and Warcraft and an arcade flying simulator) as a silly but directionally correct indication of the models' capabilitites. Compare Astra[0] with GPT 5.4[1] which was OpenAI's state of the art just six months ago. (all tests on more models with code and prompts available here: https://senko.net/vibecode-bench ) Yes, it's not a scientific benchmark but it's a good heuristic. For a better eval, create a…

I really like these tests for what its worth and I see them on youtube sometimes. I would like to ask a few things though TLDR: Basically focusing on recreating pay to win (mobile or otherwise) games and recreating them non pay to win perhaps instead of focusing on recreation of minecraft for benchmarks could have a genuinely meaningful impact, and making these games portable as well could be another interesting idea…

I'd make a distinction between youtubers who are incentivized to dial their reactions to the max for everything[0] and people doing silly tests but keeping their expectations and reactions real (most famously, Simon's pelican test).

As to why the prompts aren't shared, for these more complex things it's most likely a somewhat messy process (ie. not a single-prompt one-shot creation; some back & forth) that would make the whole thing seem less spectacular.

Likewise for the end result - it's probably cherry-picked what works well. For example, in Claude models' resuts I always get stuck in water (something about height/jump calculations is off), where with Astra I didn't have that problem. These sorts of issues you can only spot if you try to playthrough yourself.

This is just my speculation tho. As for me, I do the tests because I'm interested in the results (easy comparison across time & models) - then I started sharing them because people asked.

I have OpenAI and Anthropic subscriptions so testing these is not an extra cost for me (I'm sloppy around recording the tokens & API-equivalent cost tho - have to improve on this). For the other models, it's total a few bucks per month or so.

So if you're careful about the cost, it's not too much, especially for a serious youtuber who's doing it for commercial reasons.

Finally regarding your comment about cloning the popular enshittified games - I don't think people are going to be doing that for testing, but if you want to have a different spin (or do a close-enough clone for yourself) on a game you loved, the modern AI systems can often deliver!

[0] from the link you posted "i am in disbelief, this is insane, bro what is this, you can't believe it's ai" - yeah...umm, it's not that good :)

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#79
post #50

I keep seeing Astra make beautiful 3d stuff online, yet when I feed it some old school RuneScape assets (even tried with some very detailed guidelines) and asked it to generate some new plausible assets it failed horribly. I think there’s still something really off with current (frontier) models when it comes to creating “novel” stuff? Even 2004 style graphics.. Or am promoting it wrong?

It's a veeeeery specific artstyle

Maybe, but everyone trying to do real work is going to want to match a specific artstyle.

Re: Recreating Minecraft Is Not a Benchmark

#80

> That’s the problem, these tests can’t tell you how good a model is anymore because it’s trivial for labs to optimise for exactly these tests by the next release. But they don't prove the claim. Are the models amazing at recreating Minecraft, but the second you swap the word Minecraft out with another game or a custom game, it shits the bed? That's not what I see. My feed is full of people using Astra to recreate al…

You are falling for selection bias. For every person using Astra to create a game from some random idea and sharing the impressive result, there are an unknown number who have tried the same thing and gave up in frustration.

The posts that gain traction and hit my feed are filtered to be the best results, but I don't see what that changes. So are the Minecraft posts.

Either way, you'd have to do more work to claim that providers are specifically optimizing for Minecraft vs. other hypotheses like Minecraft just having more resources, preexisting implementations, and base model knowledge than other games.

If we're just going by vibes, I'd wager we're at the point that it's more straightforward to improve the model generally than try to special-case specific demos that are popular on social media.

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