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Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

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Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#571

Post by DANmode »

hakunin wrote: post #563
DANmode wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not treat all crime this way? Because government and law enforcement should be held to a higher standard. Here’s the closest and easiest reach to obvious regulatory capture from the other scumbag party: “I am concerned that the size of some of these institutions becomes so large that it does become difficult for us to prosecute them when we are hit with indications that if we do prosecute—if we do bring a crimi…

That's kind of my point. This was a descriptive, not a prescriptive statement, of a real problem. He literally says that it is concerning that prosecuting large institutions can cause economic harm. He isn't saying they won't prosecute, he says it's difficult because of the downsides. Holder made a mistake of wheeling out a complex nuance to a public that isn't prepared to handle it. I don't understand where is the e…

> He isn't saying they won't prosecute

That was the direct context of his statement.

> Is that what you're saying?

I’m saying you’re dangerously shit at reading between the lines if you don’t see the scheme when an ex-government person gets $400k+ per instance to show up and speak to financial institutions they/their administration didn’t prosecute out of profitability (or even majorly inconvenience their compliance department).

> What large successful business would want to squander it all on corruption on an off chance that the economic inconvenience would save them from prosecution? They are the most incentivized to identify and remove that sort of PR and legal cancer from their org

Plenty. All the way back before the East India Trading Company - work your way out from there.

Many business structures and owners only follow laws as is convenient - expected, if the only true consequence is a $$,$$$ speeding ticket and/or inconvenience ls that the ownership is insulated from.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#572

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

macNchz wrote: post #438
bluGill wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is revisionist history. Republicans are very proud of their opposition to slavery, and the Democrats were the ones opposing civil rights. There have been some changes in alignment over the years, but every Republican I've every talked to remains proud of their historic roles above.

There has been a lot more than "some changes in alignment over the years"—the parties of 160+ years ago are essentially unrecognizable today. Given the nature of how the modern Republican party established its base over the course of the 20th century, this idea of taking pride in a legacy of ending slavery is basically comical, a fiction that falls apart with even a basic knowledge of the history of American politica…

I don't think it is much more comical than modern Democrats trying to take credit for the civil rights movement. The Democratic alignment has changed from "judge by content of character, not color of skin" to thinking that practice is highly problematic.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#573

Post by hakunin »

DANmode wrote: post #571
hakunin wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of my point. This was a descriptive, not a prescriptive statement, of a real problem. He literally says that it is concerning that prosecuting large institutions can cause economic harm. He isn't saying they won't prosecute, he says it's difficult because of the downsides. Holder made a mistake of wheeling out a complex nuance to a public that isn't prepared to handle it. I don't understand where is the e…

> He isn't saying they won't prosecute That was the direct context of his statement. > Is that what you're saying? I’m saying you’re dangerously shit at reading between the lines if you don’t see the scheme when an ex-government person gets $400k+ per instance to show up and speak to financial institutions they/their administration didn’t prosecute out of profitability (or even majorly inconvenience their compliance…

> He isn't saying they won't prosecute > That was the direct context of his statement.

He prosecuted them, and chose fines over criminal punishments. If this was due to maliciousness or corruption, I'm glad that whoever openly explained it all in this interview gave up his plot. /s

> I’m saying you’re dangerously shit at reading between the lines if you don’t see the scheme when an ex-government person gets $400k+ per instance to show up and speak to financial institutions they/their administration didn’t prosecute out of profitability (or even majorly inconvenience their compliance department).

I'm saying that you're so good at reading between the lines, that you no longer see the lines. You say all these random facts, but aren't connecting them to prove any corruption. If our judicial system worked the way you read between the lines, we'd all be in prison.

> All the way back before the East India Trading Company

What happened in 1600s has zero bearing on what happens today. Even the world in the 80s and 90s is no longer remotely the same.

> if the only true consequence is a $$,$$$ speeding ticket

Nobody ever actually knows what fine they will get. One day it's a fine, another day it's a judge making an example. No business exec in their sane mind would ever risk this. No lawyer in a sane mind would ever advise this. It's an incredibly uninformed, foolish position to only see a couple of perverse incentives, and be completely blind to the overwhelming amount of positive incentives.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#575

Post by DANmode »

hakunin wrote: post #573
DANmode wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He isn't saying they won't prosecute That was the direct context of his statement. > Is that what you're saying? I’m saying you’re dangerously shit at reading between the lines if you don’t see the scheme when an ex-government person gets $400k+ per instance to show up and speak to financial institutions they/their administration didn’t prosecute out of profitability (or even majorly inconvenience their compliance…

> He isn't saying they won't prosecute > That was the direct context of his statement. He prosecuted them, and chose fines over criminal punishments. If this was due to maliciousness or corruption, I'm glad that whoever openly explained it all in this interview gave up his plot. /s > I’m saying you’re dangerously shit at reading between the lines if you don’t see the scheme when an ex-government person gets $400k+ pe…

> He prosecuted them, and chose fines over criminal punishments.

So no actual prosecution, none worthy of considering prevention. Predominantly citizens being hit.

> You say all these random facts

Financial institutions paying out lottery jackpots to members of administrations that didn’t meaningfully harm them is far from random.

> What happened in 1600s has zero bearing on what happens today

Unchecked ignorance. Go about your business.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#576

Post by hakunin »

DANmode wrote: post #575
hakunin wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He isn't saying they won't prosecute > That was the direct context of his statement. He prosecuted them, and chose fines over criminal punishments. If this was due to maliciousness or corruption, I'm glad that whoever openly explained it all in this interview gave up his plot. /s > I’m saying you’re dangerously shit at reading between the lines if you don’t see the scheme when an ex-government person gets $400k+ pe…

> He prosecuted them, and chose fines over criminal punishments. So no actual prosecution , none worthy of considering prevention. Predominantly citizens being hit. > You say all these random facts Financial institutions paying out lottery jackpots to members of administrations that didn’t meaningfully harm them is far from random. > What happened in 1600s has zero bearing on what happens today Unchecked ignorance. G…

> What happened in 1600s has zero bearing on what happens today Unchecked ignorance.

What relevant examples of getting away with corruption can we glean from a pre-enlightenment, pre-formal-police, pre-constitution, pre-checks-and-balances, pre-judiciary-act, pre-telegraph, pre-paper-trail, pre-free-journalism, pre-internet, pre-camera-phones, pre-surveillance, pre-data-centers, pre-whistleblowers, pre-structures of accountability world?

Corruption has gotten magnitudes harder to get away with (even since 00s), which is why history is irrelevant here. You would need something extraordinary, like becoming a president with criminal immunity and self-pardon powers, and getting an electoral majority to support you being openly corrupt.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#577

Post by account42 »

bawolff wrote: post #181
Loughla wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The half that supports this nonsense genuinely believes this level of corruption has always existed. They're just happy it's their team this time. I simply do not understand American politics.

People who feel lost and disaffected would rather see the whole thing burn down than continue with the status quo even if it is objectively worse for them. And its clearly been building for a while. Trump and Obama are about as opposite as possible, but they both won by campaigning on "change". This is true in most political systems. Its how most revolutions start. The commoner is always screwed but they still suppor…

> Trump and Obama are about as opposite as possible

Are they though? Both serve the same master.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#578

Post by otterley »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #551
anon84873628 wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole thread started with: >We're still fighting the remnants of the confederacy. Germany and Japan in particular purged most of those elements from their society. Here we built statues to the evil fucks That is a historical fact which has important explanatory power. It may not directly be the best basis for public Democratic platform, which most people probably agree with. The core manifestation is in our inst…

Is this theory falsifiable? What would it look like if this problem was "fixed"? Many confederate statues were taken down--did anything change as a result? The entire thing seems like a delusional crusade against windmills. Focus on the present, not the past. I get the sense that many in this thread simply have an un-quenched lust for re-education camps. Probably under Stalin they'd be mumbling about dastardly capita…

> Many confederate statues were taken down--did anything change as a result? The entire thing seems like a delusional crusade against windmills. Focus on the present, not the past.

This sounds like a thinly-veiled argument to keep them up. But why should we keep them up? In what universe does it make sense to honor the losers of a failed coup attempt against our nation by embodying them in statutes?

The reason many continue to pursue this is because of the surprising number of people who want to maintain them. It's not a "crusade against windmills," it's a crusade against people who want to honor the enemies of our nation. It's as understandable as being upset that a group of people would want to maintain an Osama bin Laden statue in the middle of Manhattan.

Taking statues down may not change much in and of itself, but it's a small piece of the bigger puzzle.

> I get the sense that many in this thread simply have an un-quenched lust for re-education camps.

Well that escalated quickly.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#579

Post by otterley »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #553
otterley wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot for people to be angry about, particularly the quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Bush administration got us into as a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11, combined with the 2008 financial crisis and Wall Street public bailout that culminated in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

None of those events were the focus of the cultural shifts I'm referring to.

Maybe you should be more explicit about what you think really happened.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#580

Post by swed420 »

zeven7 wrote: post #476
swed420 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how far back is this?

One administration

But the previous administration denying a fair primary process gave us the present one due to forcing an unpopular candidate. They collude with each other so much that they're effectively one party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniparty

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