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Programming is Art

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Re: Programming is Art

#11

Post by xeyownt »

Why are people mixing everything up? Since when code has a soul?

AI can be just a tool. You use it the same way you use a keyboard, a computer, a pencil, etc. I'm pretty sure you can build art with it, much like using any tool. People are making art with ascii. You can do art with anything.

But AI can also be much more than a tool, and why can't it have a soul? What's a soul anyway, except something that humans are making up to convince themselves that they are more than flesh and bones? Mythos will not do the same "art" as Fable or Astra would do. AI in 20 years will very likely produce art indistinguishable and as profound as human art. Obviously, humans at that time will always invent new criteria to say why this "art" is not good enough.

Re: Programming is Art

#12

Post by conradludgate »

trashb wrote: post #7
ur-whale wrote: post #4

Programming can be art. And I totally resonate with the pleasure of crafting code and the artistic aspect of it. However, it is not just that, and when it comes to making a living, then the story changes. And for that second part, man is AI a killer tool. And I'll add,: even for the first part, the story isn't black and white. If you use AI very carefully and in a collaborative manner, meaning not for the "creative w…

> However, it is not just that, and when it comes to making a living, then the story changes. Isn't this the case with all art? There are many commercial artist that are putting some of their creative input to the side to make something that sells. That doesn't stop it from being art. There are photographers that in their daily lives make school pictures or journalistic picutres while they may be more interested in m…

I think a key difference is that most programming careers, the artistic outlet (code) is not what is being sold to customers. The customer might feel something if the app works fast, but they won't feel anything about the fun bit packing and struct-of-array design you did for personal enjoyment

Re: Programming is Art

#13

Post by trashb »

WCSTombs wrote: post #6

> I love building startups, and they love writing code. For me, building projects is a way to make money. For them, programming is art. At its very high points programming approaches art, but programming is primarily problem solving, which isn't fundamentally artistic because its main goal is correctness and fitness for purpose, not aesthetic value. I'm pretty sure for most of us the choice to use LLMs or not has not…

> problem solving, which isn't fundamentally artistic

I would argue that problem solving is actually what makes any art art. When making "traditional art" you are constantly solving problems. For example, how do I make this piece of rock look like a greek god, what parts to chip off, what tools to use etc.

Art is not always made for aesthetic value, most traditional art is probably created for profit. That doesn't make it not art.

I think you might have the (in my opinion wrong) notion that there is only one "correct" way to write code. This is not true, so much so that you can identify a programmer by their signature style. Similarly to how you may identify a writer by his writing style.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_stylometry

Re: Programming is Art

#14

Post by noduerme »

WCSTombs wrote: post #6

> I love building startups, and they love writing code. For me, building projects is a way to make money. For them, programming is art. At its very high points programming approaches art, but programming is primarily problem solving, which isn't fundamentally artistic because its main goal is correctness and fitness for purpose, not aesthetic value. I'm pretty sure for most of us the choice to use LLMs or not has not…

I agree about the cost-benefit of LLMs being negative from a logical perspective, art aside.

I'm bothered by the exact quote you pulled from the article, although I didn't mention it, because it's reticent of a certain hypocritical hot take among founders and business/marketing types who can be "generous" toward their engineers because they believe that their own artistic contribution to the project is some messianic vision of it that far outweighs the quotidian questions about how it's actually built. I didn't really want to weigh in on what I felt was that tendency in the post, because I do work successfully with a lot of people like that and I often admire the sweat and work they put into their own side of running things... but those kinds of statements do come off as somewhat patronizing if they're not backed up by truly massive amounts of hard work.

Re: Programming is Art

#15

Post by tomashubelbauer »

These articles and comments on them always seem to conflate programming with programming at one's job. And it makes sense, for most people that's one and the same. But if we're talking about programming and art, I think that is a major distinction.

To provide an example, I will use an existing comment here from WCSTombs: "programming is primarily problem solving, which isn't fundamentally artistic because its main goal is correctness and fitness for purpose".

I don't consider the programming I do at work to be art or expect to ever approach art. It fits their definition. But I could see some of the programming I do for pleasure to fall within that category. Correctness is nice I guess, but fitness for purpose was never a consideration in my hobby programming, quite the opposite, actually.

I was programming for a long time before I ever starting programming for money, which is why I feel strongly about this distinction, but it may be that in the current day and age, I am just being a boomer about the whole thing.

Re: Programming is Art

#16

Post by n4r9 »

WCSTombs wrote: post #6

> I love building startups, and they love writing code. For me, building projects is a way to make money. For them, programming is art. At its very high points programming approaches art, but programming is primarily problem solving, which isn't fundamentally artistic because its main goal is correctness and fitness for purpose, not aesthetic value. I'm pretty sure for most of us the choice to use LLMs or not has not…

Mathematics also strives for correctness before aesthetics, but is often considered an art. Programming is little different imo.

When you have scoured your deepest understanding for hours - or days - in order to rewrite a function so that it is easier to read, shorter, more correct, and a thoughtful expression of your own insights and understanding; then you will see how programming can be art.

Re: Programming is Art

#17

Post by spankibalt »

xeyownt wrote: post #11

Why are people mixing everything up? Since when code has a soul? AI can be just a tool. You use it the same way you use a keyboard, a computer, a pencil, etc. I'm pretty sure you can build art with it, much like using any tool. People are making art with ascii. You can do art with anything. But AI can also be much more than a tool, and why can't it have a soul? What's a soul anyway, except something that humans are m…

> AI can be just a tool. [...] But AI can also be much more than a tool, [...].

Contradictio. Going back to Seven...

> AI can be just a tool.

Nothing, ever, is just a tool.

Re: Programming is Art

#18

Post by noduerme »

xeyownt wrote: post #11

Why are people mixing everything up? Since when code has a soul? AI can be just a tool. You use it the same way you use a keyboard, a computer, a pencil, etc. I'm pretty sure you can build art with it, much like using any tool. People are making art with ascii. You can do art with anything. But AI can also be much more than a tool, and why can't it have a soul? What's a soul anyway, except something that humans are m…

If you don't know what a soul is, and you think it's something people just make up, then you are missing out on the experience of being human and you have a bigger problem than not being able to understand what art is.

Re: Programming is Art

#20

Post by trashb »

conradludgate wrote: post #12
trashb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it is not just that, and when it comes to making a living, then the story changes. Isn't this the case with all art? There are many commercial artist that are putting some of their creative input to the side to make something that sells. That doesn't stop it from being art. There are photographers that in their daily lives make school pictures or journalistic picutres while they may be more interested in m…

I think a key difference is that most programming careers, the artistic outlet (code) is not what is being sold to customers. The customer might feel something if the app works fast, but they won't feel anything about the fun bit packing and struct-of-array design you did for personal enjoyment

Sure but most day to day professional photos are not shot because the subject is so interesting or the composition is so intriguing. They are shot to accompany a flyer, sell a product or to give a grandchild picture to their grandparents, or to get a picture on your drivers license. Even though the photographer uses a lot of techniques and knowledge to frame their shots and get a good picture, artistic values that is often not the function.
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