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Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

mullvad.net

271–278 of 278 posts

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a high level, one of 3 things happens: 1. The forwarder gets a response claiming the record is supposed to be DNNSEC signed from the parent (recursively traversing from the root). The forwarder checks the signature of this claim. If the signature is valid, the forwarder continues on to validate the signature of the record and checks its validity to know if the info was secure. If the signature is invalid, the forw…

You have two recursers (or recurser-capable systems, in the case of a forwarder), an upstream that you tentatively trust and a downstream one you trust completely (because end systems use stub resolvers and have to blindly trust a recursive resolver somewhere). Can you be more specific about how, using current DNS software, that downstream resolver can reliably detect whether a zone is DNSSEC signed? The upstream rec…

I can sense the doubt in the questions but I assure you what I'm discussing is just the defaults behavior of most DNS server software. E.g., I'll walk through below with BIND's default behavior when configured with recursion and a forwarder entry. The downstream forwarder (our BIND server) asks for all of the relevant DNSSEC records for the query to "example.com." from the root on down the FQDN. The upstream responds with a set of record responses. One of 3 things happens:

1) The signature chain checks out all the way to the root, who's key info comes from a file included the DNS software rather than a DNSSEC query. The integrity of the end record is trusted (not the upstream itself) and the process is complete.

2) The signature chain checks out but part way down it (explicitly) ends early. E.g. "example" is not configured for DNSSEC but "com" and "." are so .com ends the signature chain with a signed "example will not be signed" handoff. The process is complete, the record is securely known to be insecurely defined by the authoritative servers for "example" per the signatures from the .com records and the local security anchor (e.g. bind.keys file)

3) The signature chain doesn't validate at some point. This could be because the malicious upstream tried to modify a record or it could be because the malicious upstream tried to fake lack of record response even though it can't fake the parent domain's signature of that (recursively to the root because the root keys are local to the server). In this case, the invalid records from the malicious upstream are jettisoned in favor of trying to get valid responses via recursive resolution.

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Tying it all back together: Because the downstream forwarder is only looking for the signature chain to trust the record, it just wants to get those records as fast as possible. BIND determines the most likely way to get a quick response is to ask the forwarder. It then checks the full signature of all of these, almost always bind was right - the forwarder had the records needed cached and didn't try to modify them. If the forwarder was malicious or just in error bind throws these away and tries to recurse the answer directly.

Quad9 wants people to disable it because it's extra record requests, most people don't care, and, if you trust Quad9, you can just send your request in a DoH or DoT tunnel to secure the last hop more efficiently while they do the validation of the record itself.

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds more like we should end copyright worldwide.

There may be a middle ground between the current maximalist copyright regime and ending copyright altogether.

And ending copyright altogether would move us much closer to any such middle ground compared to where we are now.

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyleft software couldn't exist. But all software would be free by default, because all source would be in the public domain, and all reverse compilation of binaries would produce public domain code.

Sure, but if all software is in the public domain, then the profit motive for developing software will be completely wiped out, and much less will be produced as a result. Software development be reduced to a hobby or developers will have to seek out patronage like artists did in the 1600s. That’s not a world that most of us want to return to.

We had arts and sciences being funded long before copyright even existed. Your concern is not based in reality. If people want something to exist they will be willing to pay for its creation.

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve written software all my life, copyright has never been relevant to my earnings at all, trade secrets have been to some extent. Frankly copyright was meant to enable more sharing and benefiting the public domain, instead it’s become a cancer…

For every rule there is an exception.

I love the self contradiction in this one.

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#275
Apologies for political commentary, but I just say this in drew defaults blog:

“ Daniel Berntsson

Known for: Mullvad VPN (co-founder, co-owner)

Daniel is the co-founder of Mullvad VPN, alongside Fredrik Strömberg. In June 2026, Daniel donated 5M Swedish Krona (~$500,000 USD) to the populist anti-immigration Örebro Party,[source] saying “it’s sad that it’s needed”. The party supports the ethnic cleansing of non-white people from Sweden, and Daniel’s donation represented, at the time, 72% of the party’s revenue. Daniel cited immigration as a motivating factor for his donation.”

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Mentioning evil Soros is like a 100% reliable political crackpot indicator, even though this here is a quite original take. He is usually an evil Jewish globalist, i.e. a nefarious leftist. I think he seriously pissed off the right people in Russia who are now throwing whatever shit they can think of at the wall, and some of it sticks. They do not try to be consistent at all, anything that will convince someone is fi…

I’m American — I just view politics through form rather than propaganda. Eg, the concept of “left vs right” arises from USSR propaganda distancing themselves from fascists, who believed in similar practices.

You should also respond to the substance of what I said, rather than engage in ad hominems.

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have two recursers (or recurser-capable systems, in the case of a forwarder), an upstream that you tentatively trust and a downstream one you trust completely (because end systems use stub resolvers and have to blindly trust a recursive resolver somewhere). Can you be more specific about how, using current DNS software, that downstream resolver can reliably detect whether a zone is DNSSEC signed? The upstream rec…

I can sense the doubt in the questions but I assure you what I'm discussing is just the defaults behavior of most DNS server software. E.g., I'll walk through below with BIND's default behavior when configured with recursion and a forwarder entry. The downstream forwarder (our BIND server) asks for all of the relevant DNSSEC records for the query to "example.com." from the root on down the FQDN. The upstream responds…

[dead]

Re: Shutting down our public encrypted DNS

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a high level, one of 3 things happens: 1. The forwarder gets a response claiming the record is supposed to be DNNSEC signed from the parent (recursively traversing from the root). The forwarder checks the signature of this claim. If the signature is valid, the forwarder continues on to validate the signature of the record and checks its validity to know if the info was secure. If the signature is invalid, the forw…

You have two recursers (or recurser-capable systems, in the case of a forwarder), an upstream that you tentatively trust and a downstream one you trust completely (because end systems use stub resolvers and have to blindly trust a recursive resolver somewhere). Can you be more specific about how, using current DNS software, that downstream resolver can reliably detect whether a zone is DNSSEC signed? The upstream rec…

Your other comment was [dead] before I could get to it for some odd reason so I'm going to reply here again since I know you're not a bot or anything :).

This thread was about what Quad9 says to do to your own configurable local forwarder pointing at Quad9, not what you do with the end client stub resolver which has no local forwarder to point to. I think it's a fair assumption if you're running a forwarder which points to Quad9 you're doing it precisely so you don't point your stub clients directly to Quad9 anymore. And correct, you trust your own forwarder as much as you'd trust your own client resolver.

If what you're trying to ask is "do the same validations occur in clients who point directly at Quad9 rather than a locally operated forwarder as discussed above" then the answer is of course no, hence why Quad9 does not have documentation explaining how to disable DNSSEC validation in that scenario.

If that still misses what the ask is in some way I apologize but it's exceedingly hard for me to figure out what & why you're trying to ask when all I get told is where you think it breaks down in, presumably, a different scenario than I had originally been discussing. Nonetheless, I'd love to discuss it - I just need to understand the new context first and the answer may be different than for the other scenarios :).

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