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Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

babylonian-collection.yale.edu

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Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#81

Post by vladgur »

xattt wrote: post #47
amir_karbasi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in Persian, tomato is literally translated as “western plum”. This is common in our language as we usually say “western” or “foreign” as a prefix to many things that were introduced to Iran (strawberries, sit-style toilets, etc)

As an aside, tomatoes are golden apples (pomodoro), and oranges are Chinese apples (Apfelsin) in some languages. A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples or, in GP’s context, stone fruit as “reference” points.

Wow, апельсин - apelsin(Russian) makes total sense now

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#82

Post by thelibrarian »

dotancohen wrote: post #57
thrdbndndn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items. For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common names that follow this pattern: 西紅柿, literally translated as "Western Red Persimmon", and 番茄, literally translated as "Foreign Eggplant". Other produce examples include 番薯 (Foreign Yam) for sweet potato, 西瓜 (Western Melon) for watermelon, 洋蔥 (Foreign Onion) fo…

The recorded English-language etymology for "ketchup" suggests that the word comes from one of the Chinese dialect's word for tomato. Do you have any idea which Chinese word sounds like ketchup?

My personal theory based on nothing more than the vibe of the thing is that it comes from the Malay/Indonesian word ‘kecap’ (which is pronounced almost identically to “ketchup”), the word for sweet soy sauce. This is soy sauce that is thickened and sweetened with palm sugar, and I could see European cooks attempting to replicate it based on the vague descriptions given by sailors, and ending up with ketchup.

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#83

Post by eru »

fsloth wrote: post #70
thaumasiotes wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's any consolation, their lambs were nothing like ours. This period is early enough that sheep weren't yet sheared.

Oh! So were sheep just for meat back then?

Maybe also for leather?

And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#84

Post by eru »

amir_karbasi wrote: post #30
alephnerd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recipe is also similar to Hamedh [0], a delicacy in Iraqi and Baghdadi Jewish households. The only major difference is the addition of tomatoes thanks to the Columbian Exchange, and rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet. On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared ( tumatar / tamatimu ) with the English word "tomato". But anyhow, a lot…

Actually, in Persian, tomato is literally translated as “western plum”. This is common in our language as we usually say “western” or “foreign” as a prefix to many things that were introduced to Iran (strawberries, sit-style toilets, etc)

Austrians call tomatoes Paradeiser, from an older word for Paradise.

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#85

Post by wolfi1 »

eru wrote: post #83
fsloth wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh! So were sheep just for meat back then?

Maybe also for leather? And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.

do they? there are reports of lost sheep which when found had a very thick fur or whatever the shepherds call it

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#86

Post by eru »

wolfi1 wrote: post #85
eru wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe also for leather? And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.

do they? there are reports of lost sheep which when found had a very thick fur or whatever the shepherds call it

Sorry, when I said in nature, I meant undomesticated sheep.

Domesticated sheep that get lost for a while don't magically learn how to shed their coat, yes.

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#87

Post by johnohara »

The Babylonian Collection was left to Yale by J.P. Morgan in 1913. His estate at the time was estimated to be worth about $68.3M ($1.59B in 2024 dollars).

When I read that on his wikipedia page I thought "is that all?" I know I'm probably missing a bunch of other considerations, but geez, the 500th spot on the 2024 Forbes World's Billionaires list was shared by multiple individuals worth approximately $5.8B.

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#88

Post by simonh »

jamal-kumar wrote: post #67
IgorPartola wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Russian we use tomat and pomidor interchangeably.

Meanwhile English speakers joke about disagreements over the pronunciation of tomato

My favourite take on this. https://youtu.be/kcHKm0cm-jI?is=fqjBSNiJ2jYEXuq1

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#89

Post by 3RTB297 »

eikenberry wrote: post #21

Close to a recipe on Tasting History... https://www.tastinghistory.com/recipes/babylonianlambstew Our current favorite dinner watching along with Alton Brown.

Came here to mention Max Miller as well. Amazing work putting together historical context and recipes. Always fun, fascinating, and the recipes are generally very approachable.

I've also made the Babylonian stew from this recipe, and it's rich and hearty. It's easy to see how this would knock the...sandals off of ancient people.

Other ancient recipes...let's just say that humans have very much not held the same tastes over the eons. Some recipes were incongruent or sweet and savory in a strange way, or simply a flex about how many spices you had access to and cold throw in a dish, not about what it really tasted like. YMMV.

Re: Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

#90

Post by gyanchawdhary »

dvh wrote: post #16

Apparently their beets looked the same as ours: > The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).

Intresting. In Hindi/urdu it’s called “chukandar”
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