Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

mbmccoy.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 145 posts

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#21

Post by dofm »

encomiast wrote: post #20
dofm wrote: post #5

> Our society does not support classical musicians in the same way that we support ‘popular’ musicians. It really really does. Popular/rock/folk/classical musicians all earn much the same way now: a blend of teaching, occasional performance fees, functions performances like weddings and galas, music-related side-gigs (composition, arrangement and recording for commercial music), and non-music-related side gigs — teac…

> Even the first-chair musicians and conductors have side gigs. A principal player (I don't think anyone beyond high school band calls them 'first-chair') in a major symphony orchestra in the United States makes $250k-400k a year. These are extremely competitive jobs and they are paid well. Certainly enough to live on if you wanted to. These people often teach, but not really because they need a "side-gig." If you as…

There are about twenty of these people, though.

I said "approximately nobody".

At a first approximation, no musician who does it for money makes a living out of it. Classical, pop, rock, whatever.

Nobody in music, basically, makes real money. Fifty, maybe a hundred violinists in the entire world do earn a pure living. Perhaps another twenty five of each other instrument. A few international soloists in other instruments. But musicians in those jobs are often burning as much money as they are making. (Even Anouskha Shankar has a portfolio career).

This is essentially nobody. Everyone else in classical music is earning just the same way as popular musicians — and society doesn't "support" popular musicians at all! The perception that rock musicians make money touring, for example, is just that: perception. The vast majority of tours either just break even or lose money. Working in music production and staging makes better money than musicians make.

Everyone else, essentially, has another job.

> (I don't think anyone beyond high school band calls them 'first-chair')

Snark noted, though I have no earthly idea why you felt it necessary

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#22

Post by lokar »

rtpg wrote: post #17

> Classical music has been institutionalized, sent to the conservatory as a relic. A small segment of society has decided the ability to perform it is worth preserving, and devotes a sliver of capital to that end: training young people, and paying a few of the best players in the biggest cities to do it professionally. I had a whole discussion with a German friend whose husband works in opera (this was after Chalomet…

I think he agrees it is popular, but in comparison to contemporary styles of music it’s tiny (in skilled performers, listeners, funding and revenue). Right? Even in Europe.

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#23

Post by VladVladikoff »

pianopatrick wrote: post #14

Well, I think one good thing we can conclude from the music world is that there are people out there who want to pay for humans to do things even when the computer could do it better. I.e. when you go to Vegas and go to a bar, you want to have a guy playing piano and singing, and are willing to pay a bit more for that. You don't want just a jukebox, even if the jukebox can play "Don't Stop Believing" better than the…

The big weakness of the analogy from the OP is that music is universally accessible, while high level mathematics is not. The potential audience for the human playing the piano is far larger than the human solving complex mathematical theorems.

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#24

Post by johnnyanmac »

madrox wrote: post #11

We are largely having a reckoning with whether a discipline is the process or the outcome. Music didn't enter the conservatory so much as the relative interest in various styles have changed over time. I get that the author was implying that by talking about pop music, but what was music doing before Mozart came around? Every field is having this existential crisis right now, from art to math. Especially in art, the…

>the anti-AI hate mostly reduces to arguing that art is the process not the outcome.

The outcome is also bad though, once you scale past static images. That's why consumers, who otherwise are apathetic at scale, are extremely negative against generative AI. at least where they (perceive to) notice it.

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#25

Post by lokar »

boothby wrote: post #15
anon291 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern 'classical' music is a myth. In their day, classical composers were essentially pop performers. Women used to throw their undergarments at mozart... Today classical music is filled with people who want to pretend to be superior to pop musicians because they keep their repertoire confined to academically acceptable areas. And then the LARPers that want to make new music make complete and utter arhythmic and ato…

> Today classical music is filled with people who want to pretend to be superior to pop musicians because they keep their repertoire confined to academically acceptable areas. As somebody with classical training and a brother in the industry, it pains me to read this misinformed opinion of yours. Top-tier symphonies world round are doing crossover concerts with pop artists, play pop songs, modern and experimental mus…

> Top-tier symphonies world round are doing crossover concerts with pop artists

And they have been for a long time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Group_and_Orchest...

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#26

Post by lokar »

Fordec wrote: post #13
madrox wrote: post #11

We are largely having a reckoning with whether a discipline is the process or the outcome. Music didn't enter the conservatory so much as the relative interest in various styles have changed over time. I get that the author was implying that by talking about pop music, but what was music doing before Mozart came around? Every field is having this existential crisis right now, from art to math. Especially in art, the…

I like this framing. I know that AI has it's place and in others it doesn't. I recognize I sound like an AI shill in personal conversations, but I'm a very outcome driven person. I simply want multiple, thousands of outcomes even, and those outcomes all coming together is my process/journey, which is different to a developer or musicians process may view their career.

The outcome I want from art is to feel some emotion in common with the artist. Machines don’t have emotion.

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#27

Post by eru »

lokar wrote: post #22
rtpg wrote: post #17

> Classical music has been institutionalized, sent to the conservatory as a relic. A small segment of society has decided the ability to perform it is worth preserving, and devotes a sliver of capital to that end: training young people, and paying a few of the best players in the biggest cities to do it professionally. I had a whole discussion with a German friend whose husband works in opera (this was after Chalomet…

I think he agrees it is popular, but in comparison to contemporary styles of music it’s tiny (in skilled performers, listeners, funding and revenue). Right? Even in Europe.

Europe is actually worse, or at least Germany, because the government pays for opera, so it doesn't have to stand on its own two feet. So they don't (have to) care about listeners as much.

Re: Is mathematics about to enter the conservatory?

#28

Post by lokar »

eru wrote: post #27
lokar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he agrees it is popular, but in comparison to contemporary styles of music it’s tiny (in skilled performers, listeners, funding and revenue). Right? Even in Europe.

Europe is actually worse, or at least Germany, because the government pays for opera, so it doesn't have to stand on its own two feet. So they don't (have to) care about listeners as much.

There is a certain amount of government support for classical music in the US as well. Not enough to fully fund it.
Post reply on HN