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Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

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Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#431
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. > Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it? The EU isn't party to the Budapest Memorandum. > Is your gear ready?…

> The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. Well the US and UK rushed munitions. But aside from that it just makes Western Europe culpable for failing > It is actively being sent, unlike US gear which appears to have stopped roughly with Trump taking over. We aren't asking you to deploy to the front lines of Ukraine. Why do you even think this has been asked of…

> But aside from that it just makes Western Europe culpable for failing

Of Western Europe, one nation was party to the Budapest Memorandum.

That one party is the UK.

> You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand the troop levels and equipment placed throughout Europe. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true.

Zero of which are currently fighting Russia.

Despite what Russian propaganda claims about this war, NATO is not a belligerent, therefore the USA is not a belligerent.

You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand this. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true.

> > > Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians?

> > This is an entirely separate question to Ukraine.

> Not really

Yes really.

You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand the front lines and belligerents, and that NATO isn't on that list. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true.

> If the military presence, continued training exercises, continued well, functioning of NATO means you now don't trust us, then why are we there? You don't trust us, we could just turn on you any moment! Your belief does not reflect reality.

You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand the troop levels and equipment placed in and around Greenland in direct response to the attempt by your president to, and I need to emphasise this, ILLEGALLY ANNEX IT LIKE PUTIN IS DOING TO BITS OF UKRAINE. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis

> You're the one saying "we don't trust you" "you don't support Ukraine" etc. and neither of those are true. You're purposefully driving divisions when none need exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Diplomatic_crises_dur...

You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand the problem and that your president has been purposefully driving divisions when none need exist. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true.

Fact is, we genuinely do not trust you, to an even greater extent than we don't trust China. Because, again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis

You may not take that seriously, we did. If you can't understand that, we (personally) are done.

What I can't work out, and don't care to, is how much of this is you treating the USA like it's the only power that matters and everyone else can be disregarded (common failing in all nations), or if you're actually here to push the Russian efforts to cause America to needlessly isolate itself from, and outright alienate, its allies.

Like, least you could do is admit that the Greenland crisis is a serious crisis that drove a wedge between us, that needs to be resolved. If the USA can't bring itself to admit that, it's going to be full of people very surprised allies rapidly (as fast as slow moving ships of state can) stop being allies when you threaten to take their territory.

And that actually taking it means war.

Real, hot, war.

I don't know which is better, you having a normal level of nationalist myopia (which would mean a lot of Amis think like you, leads to high risk of hot war), or you being an agent (actively manipulating opinions, leading to aforementioned).

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#432
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn’t talking about the historical aspect. Same applies = the same risk also exists due to geopolitics and distance. Heck, didn’t New Caledonia see a wave of protests that were crushed in the past year or two?

> Heck, didn’t New Caledonia see a wave of protests that were crushed in the past year or two? Yes, that's why the risk is NOT the same between French Guiana and New Caledonia. Both of them are oversea territories far from the mainland with a colonial past, but their current relationship with the mainland is very different. Around a quarter of the population of New Caledonia has been calling for independence for deca…

Thanks for explaining. But I am not sure how this contradicts my point?

Sure, placing launch infrastructure in French Guiana is probably less risky than setting up shop in New Caledonia. Clearly, the risk profile is not the same for all of Overseas France.

My point is that if the decision is between mainland and Overseas France, the latter introduces elevated risk in the long term in general. French Guiana could be fine today, but it is not impossible that the next few years could see the rise of a populist pro-independence movement that would eventually impact launch infrastructure (similar to how it did for the USSR).

Reality is fundamentally chaotic after all.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#433
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a sovereignty perspective, does a launch from continental Europe actually matter when Arianespace/CNES/ESA has been launching from France for decades?

But French Guiana is a geographically distant ex-colony, so there will always be a higher probability of future inaccessibility. Same applies to New Caledonia, Martinique, etc.

How about a spaceport in Caledonia proper?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaxaVord_Spaceport

How about the last time South America contested a little parcel of land?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any unfamiliar with the history, Russia was a mass murdering machine in this era, vaporizing tens of millions of people, including Russians, in very short spans of time without even a second thought. We all know Germans was. And some people would fling fecal allegations that “so was the US!”. No. German and Russian actions were categorically different than wartime casualties (even brutal, possibly criminal, warti…

For anyone actually unfamiliar with history, this is a gross exaggregation made with a sole purpose of equalizing nazi crimes with what happened in the soviet union. History does not work this way, in the early modernity masses were cohesive and industrialized, and so were the crimes and atrocities. Every developed country got to it, but what makes nazis different is that the regime was built with the sole purpose of…

The Russian crimes were NOT equal to Nazi germany, and I didn’t state as much. They were very very very bad though.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone actually unfamiliar with history, this is a gross exaggregation made with a sole purpose of equalizing nazi crimes with what happened in the soviet union. History does not work this way, in the early modernity masses were cohesive and industrialized, and so were the crimes and atrocities. Every developed country got to it, but what makes nazis different is that the regime was built with the sole purpose of…

The Soviet Union was far worse at the time (both before and after the existence of Nazi Germany). It got a lot better after Stalin's death.

It’s clear by the numbers, but some will just refuse, mostly those with romantic views of Marx or the others, while at the same time arguing “but real communism has never been tried!”

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a clearly defined border between the continents Europe and Asia. I guess the confusion comes from thinking of "European" as some sort of cultural identity (which frankly doesn't exist, unless you only look at the last hundred years or so, and even that is generous), instead of the people living in the geographical region called "Europe".

This is false. Europe and Asia are on the same continent on the same tectonic plate. Your 2nd point is spot on. This is where the cultural distinction matters.

> Europe and Asia are on the same continent on the same tectonic plate.

By that definition India would be its own continent because the country largely sits on its own tectonic plate.

Also Europe and Asia are continents, they're not on the same continent (same landmass: sure).

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Especially given that recent history has shown us that we're back to "power" being the only language spoken. "Power being the only language spoken", never left in the first place in order to get back to it, it's how the world always worked and will always work. Granted, power wasn't actually the "language spoken", but more accurately it was the stick ensuring the enforcement of the terms agreed within the "language…

Always is such a strong word.

Where did I use "always"?

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the world piece like all the wars in the middle east, Vietnam, proxy conflicts all over the world and so on and so on. I'm not blaming the US for all of these wars but they also didn't prevent them. And the US did overthrow many democracies and often made things much worse, Iran being a great example, but there are many others. I could go on. Peace in Europe was maintained mostly by people in democracies general…

> Vietnam The US was actually on the right side in that one (just like in Korea). The Communists were not exactly the good guys and their "agricultural and personnel reforms" lead to drastically reduced food production and starvation and death. Blame the US for real things instead, such as supporting the wrong side in Afghanistan in the '80s or ensuring the survival of the Soviet Union in the '40s.

That is an objectively incorrect take. A common theme in disastrous US interventions was that they tried to prop-up a failing colonial power, which in this case was France - against the locals who wanted independence. Ho Chi Minh was a French-educated leader who only entered the orbit of the USSR after failing to secure support for Vietnamese independence frome the West.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA got the cream of the crop of the managers of the German missile program, while the USSR got the workers, who actually did the work with their hands and built the parts for the rockets. (One exception was Helmut Gröttrup, the head of the V-2’s guidance and telemetry systems.) In fact, after the war the USSR has briefly reconstituted the manufacturing of V-2 in Germany, employing thousands of people, before transpl…

> USA got the cream of the crop of the managers of the German missile program, while the USSR got the workers That's a bit oversimplified. The Russians got quite a few important scientists and engineers in other areas (aircraft design, nuclear physics, electronics, radar, optics), they just didn't make as good use of them as the US (e.g. the 'American Germans' essentially won the space race for the US).

Talking about the role of V2 in the development of rocketry in various countries is more or less relevant to the discussion of Isar, because it was a major milestone, and it did influence all rocketry worldwide, in many different ways.

Rocketry may be much more talked about, but in terms of headcount is was a tiny thing compared to the number of German experts who were "invited" into all Allied countries after the war. Just France and UK had brought in about 3 thousand persons each. If one had said that this did not happen, that would have been an error. But simply not bringing this up at all because it is not very relevant to the discussion of Isar is fine, I think.

Debating who "won" the space race, and who "used" Germans "better" is not something that I want to do.

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