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Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

cloudinabottle.org

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Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#301

Post by walrus01 »

huksley wrote: post #289
dgellow wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, self-hosting is definitely having a come back. Lots of content creators who would have been evangelizing cloud solutions in the past have been instead going into the various self hosting rabbit holes. There is a bit of a pendulum swing. You now have access to so much information and tooling to host your own things, it’s pretty awesome compared to what we had before 2010. Not sure how much impact that will have…

Unfortunately it getting more expensive, as hosting companies started to rise prices because of memory costing more

Kind of unavoidable now for hosting companies purchasing new hardware, much as diesel costs are affecting trucking companies.

Let's say theoretically that a company decides to buy raw rack space+power colo and DIY your own router setup, upstream IP transit connections and buy their own server hardware... You're suffering equally from the increase in RAM costs buying your server hardware much the same as if you go with a dedicated bare metal hardware hosting company.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#302

Post by willsmith72 »

Crabber wrote: post #279
jiaosdjf wrote: post #218

The cloud space is absurd, we've sat by for 2 decades while the likes of AWS define every aspect of deployment, auth, even containerisation. Containerisation was supposed to mean host anywhere, literally redeploy a complex set of services and their connections on any cloud provider at the drop of a hat. That is what a f**ing shipping container is, you rock up to any port in the world and the same container is lifted…

I think a lot of programmers in the industry just follow trends, they don't really understand the benefits and drawbacks of the technology they are using. I have coworkers who host personal projects for their own use and put them in docker, set up CI pipelines, host them on a cloud service, use an enterprise level database on the backend. One of my coworkers made a completely static portfolio website with a single pa…

> One of my coworkers made a completely static portfolio website with a single page and used react.

People love hating on react, but I mean this is pretty common. Raw is fine, but even in a "static" thing, you'll eventually go "ok now I want to reuse some text here.." Or have some common elements with x things shared. So I'm gonna have to write some hacky imperative JS? Or messy CSS? And what starts as static very easily becomes slightly dynamic. I hate overengineering, so if React were hard to setup or deploy I'd agree (eg Kube), but the cost-benefit of React makes it worth it in most cases for me

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#303

Post by kursus »

xorcist wrote: post #292
kursus wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file transferring Setting up and maintaining a server is easier today than it was decades ago, A LAMP at this time meant a lot of manual setup, IaC wasn't a thing, reproducibility wasn't a goal, versioning was confidential, documentation was scarce and often outdated, out of the box sec…

> A LAMP at this time meant a lot of manual setup, IaC wasn't a thing, I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. LAMP is called that because it was a very standardized thing. Pop in a Debian CD and select a ready made profile for it. There were even ready made installers for Windows and Mac if you weren't on an Internet native operating system. A lot more people got by using custom bash scripts, but cfengine exited in the…

> op in a Debian CD and select a ready made profile for it.

At the time in question here tasksel wasn't a thing, I think merely a concept. It made its way in Debian installer around 20005 IIRC, right along "one-click installs" from hosting services mentioned in the other reply. The whole decade before that, indeed manual set up was needed.

> at /r/homelab or somewhere selfhosters hang out today [...] That's orders of magnitude more manual work

There is two kinds of self-hosters, those who aim at reproducibility and those who don't. The latter is more fun, the former gets quickly mandatory when you _rely_ on your homelab.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#304

Post by skybrian »

prologic wrote: post #124
skybrian wrote: post #22

This pitch is somewhat interesting, but, much like Sandstorm, browsing the library of pre-built apps kind of leaves me cold. It's too much like browsing a rather tiny mobile app store. There are maybe three apps that I might be interested in. Since we have AI now, I think exe.dev's pitch is better: they provide Linux VMs, a web proxy, and integrations. You can ask the AI to build whatever web app you like. I'd love t…

What apps were you looking for that you wouldn't find in the catalog?

I don't really know. Maybe a continuous build server? But just because it's listed in the catalog doesn't mean it's the one I want to use.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#305

Post by Crabber »

ItsYan wrote: post #291
Crabber wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of programmers in the industry just follow trends, they don't really understand the benefits and drawbacks of the technology they are using. I have coworkers who host personal projects for their own use and put them in docker, set up CI pipelines, host them on a cloud service, use an enterprise level database on the backend. One of my coworkers made a completely static portfolio website with a single pa…

I understand your viewpoint because but also have you considered that your approach adds nothing to the builder? I don't mean this in a judgemental way. In your scenario, I spend learning 50 different technologies that I will never use because they are not hired for. Whereas the colleague makes 50 different projects, gets comfortable with the technology and maybe hits an interesting edge case or two to talk about at…

> In your scenario, I spend learning 50 different technologies that I will never use because they are not hired for

I'm actually saying the opposite of this. To learn react you also need to know html, css and javascript, so I am saying if you need to make a static website that is just a single page you may as well just write it in HTML. I am saying you should use less technology.

Similarly to learn Docker you need to know bash so you already have the skills to just skip over docker and deploy your app directly by running bash commands on a linux server.

The "50 different technologies" is how I see the flavour-of-the-month cloud platforms that take something that's relatively simple (copying code to a server and running a command to start it) and turning it into a proprietary cloud platform you now have to learn. Whereas you could have just learnt how to deploy software to a linux server instead and have a skill that was valuable 20 years ago, is still valuable, and will still be the way software is fundamentally run in 20 years time as well I am sure. Meanwhile I have no idea what Dokku and Kamal even are - I'm sure they won't last as long as linux and bash have.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#306

Post by ocdtrekkie »

fivestones wrote: post #266
ferfumarma wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are also characterizing another project that was open-sourced (sandstorm) and is under active development as "long abandoned". Open source is difficult and requires a fair amount of cheerleading to engage users and make them part of the community. As a result it's hard to see your project in a positive light.

I mean, to be honest it does look like sandstorm development has almost stopped for the past couple of years...or am I missing something? https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/graphs/code-freque...

Our current work is in the dev branch, we are preparing for a new release soon.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#307

Post by opem »

ItsYan wrote: post #291
Crabber wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of programmers in the industry just follow trends, they don't really understand the benefits and drawbacks of the technology they are using. I have coworkers who host personal projects for their own use and put them in docker, set up CI pipelines, host them on a cloud service, use an enterprise level database on the backend. One of my coworkers made a completely static portfolio website with a single pa…

I understand your viewpoint because but also have you considered that your approach adds nothing to the builder? I don't mean this in a judgemental way. In your scenario, I spend learning 50 different technologies that I will never use because they are not hired for. Whereas the colleague makes 50 different projects, gets comfortable with the technology and maybe hits an interesting edge case or two to talk about at…

I think the gp is saying the exact opposite of what you gave an example for, and in line with what you are saying i.e. less technology.

one more thing is you tried both kamal and dokku, and then made a deliberate choice of sticking to k3s because suits you the best rather than making a mindless descision about using k3s, which most people do!

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#308

Post by adeptima »

has anyone bothered to check the code, dependencies especially dockerfile and god forgive me performance of this project !?

the pain point presented correctly especially comparison … but what about remedy?

https://github.com/cloud-in-a-bottle/cloud-in-a-bottle/

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#309

Post by spockz »

venusenvy47 wrote: post #299
creesch wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does being docker compose based make it inaccessible? Because it requires people to also have knowledge about the ins and outs of docker and docker compose. If we are talking about web applications it is yet another layer that has been added over the years. It used to be that you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file t…

I don't like using Docker on a VPS because of the way it bypasses the firewall rules. It's such a pain that I avoid it altogether for anything public.

Docker doesn’t do that on my Fedora machine, nor on my arch machine. Did I set some setting somewhere that I forgot about? I’m also running rootless docker and podman so that might explain.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#310

Post by spockz »

kursus wrote: post #195
creesch wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does being docker compose based make it inaccessible? Because it requires people to also have knowledge about the ins and outs of docker and docker compose. If we are talking about web applications it is yet another layer that has been added over the years. It used to be that you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file t…

> you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file transferring Setting up and maintaining a server is easier today than it was decades ago, A LAMP at this time meant a lot of manual setup, IaC wasn't a thing, reproducibility wasn't a goal, versioning was confidential, documentation was scarce and often outdated, out of the box sec…

Do you have any sources on why rootless is just false security posturing?
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